He, She and They? / 他, 她与TA?

Jeanette: 歡迎收看我們鸡同鸭讲播客,我是柯珍。

GiGi: 我是郑行之GiGi。

Jeanette: 好,那今天我們有一個嘉賓叫Maddie。

Jeanette: Hello, Maddie.

Maddie: 大家好。Everybody, Hello. Thank you very much for having me with you guys today.

Jeanette: 好, 那Maddie是一個英國人, 所以我們會說英語錄我們的播客。

Jeanette: 那Maddie, can you introduce yourselve briefly?

Maddie: Hello, my name is Maddie, I’ve just finished my second year at uni, I take English language and linguistics.

Maddie: I’m about to go into my third year, and since it’s summer, I’m interning with Jeanette this summer, so I’ve been helping you out with a couple of bits and bobs.

Jeanette: Brilliant, yeah, and it’s much appreciated.

Jeanette: OK, now we invited Maddie because we know that there is a topic that people sometimes struggle with when they come to Britain.

GiGi: Yes.

Jeanette: And I know Gigi, you struggled with this, haven’t you?

GiGi: Yes, so before I come to UK to become a lecturer, I was an university lecturer in China back in, for like 20 months.

GiGi: So most of the time I’m still delivering the lecture using Chinese.

GiGi: However, after I come here, one of my biggest challenge is about separating the he, she and they.

GiGi: Because in Chinese, because when we’re writing he, she, they in Chinese, they are different.

GiGi: However, when we are speaking Chinese, they sound the same.

GiGi: So they’re just like 他, 她, 它, they’re just the same.

GiGi: So for me, especially that when I need to interact with my students, because they have so many background,

GiGi: so some of my students are using they as their pronouns.

GiGi: So for me, it’s not about using they anymore.

GiGi: It’s about when I’m speaking, I’m already confused of using he and she.

GiGi: So for me, it’s not about the they situation, it’s about the he/she situation.

GiGi: I’m already confusing with it.

Jeanette: Okay, so we’ve got pronouns, he/she, but then also they.

GiGi: Maddie, what are they?

Maddie: So they are pronouns used by normally non-binary people.

Maddie: And that means that there are certain people who don’t identify with the gender norms.

Maddie: So binary by definition means this too. So boys and girls, that’s the gender.

Maddie: Now what non-binary people believe and what a lot of other people surrounding the LGBTQ+ community believe

Maddie: is that gender shouldn’t be so restricted and so confined to just those two norms.

Maddie: So if you’re non-binary, what it is is that your gender exists outside of those norms.

Maddie: You don’t see yourself as a boy, you don’t see yourself as a girl, you’re something in between.

Maddie: It doesn’t have to be split in the middle. It can be identifying as more masculine, as more feminine,

Maddie: but it means that you don’t see yourself as a girl, you don’t want to use she/her pronouns,

Maddie: because that’s how we identify girls, and you don’t want to use he/him, because that’s how we identify boys.

Maddie: Something in the middle, It’s they them.

Jeanette: And this is quite common in britian now?

Maddie: It’s increasingly more enpowering, I think,

Maddie: There’re a lot of different arguments is to why, but I think

Maddie: tend to be the most positive arguments is that,

Maddie: people are being more comfortable of being who they are, as time progresses, and with that,

Maddie: People want to display that, people want to live as authentic as themselves.

Jeanette: Yeah, so when did you first come across this, Gigi?

GiGi: One of my students… He…, Uh, I already making…

GiGi: Yeah, they are using, because my mind keep telling me that “they is using”,

GiGi: so yeah, for me, they are using the, but I’m actually talking about one single person, but I’m using they are.

GiGi: They are using the pronouns of they. So when that’s, it’s very lucky for me that when I’m interacting with them,

GiGi: is that I just talking to you, it’s not talking about them.

GiGi: So for me, even for me, even for me, in my mindset current at the moment is that when I need to talk about them,

GiGi: is that I’m thinking about他们,他们 is like a group of people.

GiGi: But my mind is actually thinking about one person only.

GiGi: So this is the challenging part, is that I’m talking about one individual,

GiGi: but in English term, while I’m learning English is actually talking about group of people.

GiGi: So this is a challenging part.

Jeanette: So Maddie, it is they are and not they is, right? Even when we’re talking about one person.

Maddie: Yeah, so obviously in English, you can use they for groups of people, it can be plural,

Jeanette: but it can also mean individuals, not just in the non-binary context, it is used in other contexts as well.

Maddie: For example, if I was to say, oh, I went to the shops and the cashier, they gave me my change.

Maddie: That’s still talking about one person. I’m still talking about that one cashier.

Maddie: And all it is is emitting their gender.

Maddie: I’m not saying that the cashier is non-binary, but the gender is irrelevant to the story. So why include it?

Maddie: So when would you use this? When would you say, oh, they gave me my cash?

Jeanette: It doesn’t matter what gender they are?

Maddie: I think it’s individual to each person.

Maddie: I don’t think people have a particular method as to when they do and don’t use it.

Maddie: I think it would make just as much sense and no one would think any differently if I was to say,

Maddie: and he gave me the change back or she gave me the change back or they gave me the change back.

Maddie: It doesn’t make a difference.

GiGi: But I think my grammar mistake here is that because I want to use the they are,

GiGi: but my mind is keep telling me that when you are talking about they,

GiGi: you actually doesn’t use the they is or using are inside your sentence.

GiGi: For me is that if I want to use they are,

GiGi: and then my mindset is actually keep telling me that I need to use they is.

GiGi: So I think this is the challenge for me.

GiGi: Yes, so I guess is that I might still need a little bit time to like, yeah, I understand now.

GiGi: So I’m just wondering, yeah.

Jeanette: So Maddie, do you know any non-binary people and how would they react to this?

Maddie: I think the non-binary people I know, I think they’re understanding.

Maddie: I think since you have to do so much in an exploration and self-discovery,

Maddie: I think it must make you some form of understanding and empathetic person.

Maddie: And so I don’t think anyone’s going to be deeply upset.

Maddie: I think if you were to make any mistakes concerning gender,

Maddie: I think it’s very understandable because and I think it’s not malicious.

Maddie: You’re not trying to be nasty.

Maddie: You’re not trying to go out your way to hurt anybody’s feelings.

Maddie: It’s just a mistake and that’s okay.

Maddie: And so the non-binary people I know wouldn’t mind.

Maddie: You’re their teacher.

Maddie: You’re there to teach them.

Maddie: And it’s lovely that you want to be respectful.

Maddie: It really is.

Maddie: But as long as you try your best,

Maddie: I don’t think anybody’s going to have some massive complaints.

Maddie: I really don’t.

Maddie: I think I can understand how some people could call it could cause offence to people

Maddie: in terms of the he/she thing.

Maddie: But less so with the non-binary thing because I think that even in English now,

Maddie: I think that’s even something that English people slip up on.

Maddie: So I don’t think you need to be worried about hurting anybody’s feelings.

GiGi: I think the major consideration here is about the kindness

GiGi: and how they treat the others equally rather than about making the grammar mistake, I guess.

Jeanette: But then one of the other mistakes, Gigi,

Jeanette: that you said you often make is the he/she distinction.

Jeanette: So when you talk about people,

Jeanette: in Chinese it’s obviously “TA” all the way through.

Jeanette: And when you speak about people here,

Jeanette: you might say she or he and get the gender wrong.

GiGi: Yes, exactly.

GiGi: So yeah, we just simply doesn’t separate the he, she and they.

GiGi: So we are just using the same word.

Jeanette: So until about a hundred years ago,

Jeanette: there was no distinction in the written language either.

Jeanette: Okay. Now obviously there is a distinction in the written language

Jeanette: where you have he/she and it written differently,

Jeanette: but all pronounced TA.

Jeanette: But in English, obviously it’s not just in the written language,

Jeanette: but it’s also in the spoken language

Jeanette: where we have to make that distinction.

Jeanette: And then with the added complication of them,

Jeanette: we’re aware of other languages that do this, right?

Jeanette: Maddie, have you got any experiences?

Maddie: Yeah, I’m aware of, of course, a friend and a lecturer who’s Finnish

Maddie: and they don’t make the distinction.

Jeanette: Really?

Maddie: Yeah, in Finnish they don’t make the gender distinction when speaking.

Maddie: And so someone phrased it to me as,

Maddie: it’s interesting when she was trying,

Maddie: the lecturer is a woman, when she was trying to learn,

Maddie: not trying to learn English, when she was learning English,

Maddie: because as an English speaker,

Maddie: there’s always that nagging,

Maddie: there’s always that nagging thing in the back of your head

Maddie: that’s saying if someone’s using gender neutral pronouns,

Maddie: that’s going, yes, but what gender?

Maddie: But what gender?

Maddie: So, it’s a boy or a girl.

Maddie: And I don’t know why.

Maddie: I think maybe because we use the gendered pronouns,

Maddie: that it’s just, it feels like a piece of the story is missing.

Maddie: But to a Finnish speaker, there’s no distinction.

Maddie: It doesn’t make a difference.

Maddie: They can use gender neutral pronouns throughout the whole thing.

Maddie: But Finnish is an example of what I know.

Jeanette: Yeah, and Finnish, one could say, goes even further than Chinese,

Jeanette: because the Finnish pronoun is “Hen”,

Jeanette: and it’s written “Hen”,

Jeanette: whether it’s male or female.

Jeanette: So, it’s the same all the way through.

Jeanette: So, this distinction between male and female is not there

Jeanette: in some languages, and people get around it.

Jeanette: But then also make mistakes,

Jeanette: obviously, when they learn a language that is gendered.

Jeanette: So, this use of non-binary pronouns

Jeanette: is quite common amongst our students at university.

Jeanette: And also, I know from school, my daughter’s school,

Jeanette: there’s quite a few non-binary pupils.

Jeanette: But amongst my generation,

Jeanette: there really aren’t any that I’m aware of.

Jeanette: So, how come?

Maddie: I think, honestly,

Maddie: I think there’s going to be countless reasons.

Maddie: But the one that comes to mind for me is that

Maddie: people say when we speak about language,

Maddie: that language is arbitrary.

Maddie: We assign meaning to words.

Maddie: The words like microphone

Maddie: doesn’t actually have anything to do with the sounds

Maddie: that are coming out of my mouth.

Maddie: We completely assign the meaning to it.

Maddie: And I think as time’s progressed,

Maddie: I think it’s given people more time

Maddie: and more opportunities to think

Maddie: about the fact that maybe gender’s arbitrary, too.

Maddie: Maybe if the ideas and the implications

Maddie: associated with men and masculinity

Maddie: and females and femininity,

Maddie: you can start dissecting them a little bit more.

Maddie: There is absolutely, in my opinion,

Maddie: no reason that femininity

Maddie: should be associated with females,

Maddie: bar the word femme and femme.

Maddie: And I think that people who are non-binary

Maddie: can make the separation of,

Maddie: separate masculinity from men

Maddie: and separate femininity from females.

Maddie: And I think as soon as you realise

Maddie: that maybe those can be reassigned

Maddie: and that thought process can be reevaluated,

Maddie: I think it opens up to such a

Maddie: more interesting perspective on gender.

Maddie: And so the idea that

Maddie: if you grow up liking dresses

Maddie: and liking makeup and liking femininity,

Maddie: that’s okay if you’re a boy,

Maddie: because men don’t have to be associated

Maddie: with masculinity.

Maddie: They can also be associated with femininity.

Maddie: And it can meet somewhere in the middle.

Maddie: You might want to be associated with either.

Maddie: And I think as time progresses,

Maddie: it just allows people to pick all it apart

Maddie: a little bit more and reevaluate

Maddie: and analyse it a little bit more

Maddie: and kind of let it sit with themselves

Maddie: a little bit more.

Jeanette: So society has basically changed

Jeanette: over the last few decades.

GiGi: Depends.

GiGi: I would say depends.

Maddie: Go on.

GiGi: So when I was 10 years old,

GiGi: maybe like five or six years old,

GiGi: I cried a lot when I was a child.

GiGi: And then in order to stop me from crying,

GiGi: my grandpa put some very bitter stuff,

GiGi: pour the bitter powder on my fingers.

GiGi: So when I’m licking on it,

GiGi: or something like that,

GiGi: they will need to like,

GiGi: because it’s very bitter,

GiGi: or something like that.

GiGi: So they keep telling me to be masculine

GiGi: a little bit.

GiGi: Stop crying.

GiGi: Behave like a man.

GiGi: And then turns out I’m not.

GiGi: So what I’m trying to say is that,

GiGi: yeah, so when I come here,

GiGi: my first English name is actually Dick,

GiGi: D-I-C-K, Dick.

GiGi: But in English word,

GiGi: Dick is actually some very male name, right?

GiGi: So yeah.

Jeanette: I mean, originally it just meant Richard, right?

Maddie: Yeah, it’s a shortened version for Richard.

Jeanette: Yeah, these shortened forms are quite common in English,

Jeanette: aren’t they?

Maddie: Yeah.

GiGi: Dick is related to Richard?

Jeanette: Yeah.

Jeanette: Yes, it’s just Richard.

Jeanette: And in English,

Jeanette: at least most longer names would have a shorter form.

Jeanette: So your name is originally Madeleine.

Maddie: My name is Madeleine, yeah.

Jeanette: But it’s shortened to Maddie.

GiGi: But I thought the rich is the short word of Richard.

Maddie: It can be.

Jeanette: It has changed,

Jeanette: because obviously Dick is the short form of Richard.

Jeanette: But it has taken on a second meaning.

GiGi: Yes, yes.

Jeanette: And because of that second meaning,

Jeanette: people over a certain age may still use the name Dick,

Jeanette: because that’s what they used to.

Jeanette: But younger people may refrain from using that name,

Jeanette: just because of its added meaning, right, Maddie?

Maddie: No, yeah, I agree.

Maddie: I don’t know.

Maddie: I think Richard’s not a very popular name in my generation,

Maddie: as it stands anyway.

Maddie: I don’t know many Richards

Maddie: that aren’t people’s dads.

Maddie: But no, I’m aware of the same thing,

Maddie: is that they tend to shorten to rich,

Maddie: as opposed to Dick.

GiGi: So if the Chinese students want to study here

GiGi: and they want to create an English name,

GiGi: what kind of males’ name that they should avoid?

GiGi: Because sometimes it’s a little bit too many names

GiGi: that they should avoid.

GiGi: I remember that when I’m watching some documentary

GiGi: or maybe just like videos or something online,

GiGi: they’ve been talking about they have a lot of

GiGi: words to describe toilet.

GiGi: So even John, J-O-H-N, john,

GiGi: is also another way to call the toilet.

Maddie: Is that a John?

GiGi: A John, yes.

Maddie: Oh, like a Johnny?

Jeanette: Yeah, but it’s not used that often.

Maddie: No, it’s not used that often at all.

Jeanette: No, and I know lots of people call John,

Jeanette: and John is a very common name.

GiGi: Exactly.

GiGi: It’s like, yeah, because there’s so many names,

GiGi: they’re kind of like a forbidden.

GiGi: So what kind of name I should actually use?

GiGi: So this kind of like a very…

Maddie: I think that’s an interesting question.

Maddie: I don’t…

Maddie: Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anybody’s

Maddie: names that are like…

GiGi: Very offensive.

Maddie: Yeah, very offensive.

Maddie: I think…

Maddie: Are you asking about males’ names specifically?

GiGi: Yes.

Maddie: I think I agree with what I said earlier.

Maddie: I think with male names especially,

Maddie: a lot of them are shortened.

Maddie: It’ll be Timothy to Tim or Benjamin to Ben.

Maddie: And so a lot of people go by shorter names,

Maddie: which more often than not are quite common.

Jeanette: And I think for a Chinese person

Jeanette: looking for an English name,

Jeanette: I think those shortened forms are usually quite good.

Jeanette: Like Ben and Tim definitely.

Jeanette: John and Paul.

Jeanette: James, a big one.

Jeanette: Pete, James.

Jeanette: Yeah.

GiGi: Yeah.

Jeanette: I think they’re your traditional names,

Jeanette: very common names, and they’re usually okay.

Jeanette: So if you didn’t want to stand out,

Jeanette: you’d go for a name like that.

Jeanette: But Gigi, you chose Gigi.

Jeanette: Why is that?

GiGi: Yes, because my Chinese name is just Zheng Xingzhi.

GiGi: So I don’t have a lot of male friends,

GiGi: but I have a lot of besties,

GiGi: have a lot of friends who are girls.

GiGi: So just be friends with them.

GiGi: So yeah, most of the time,

GiGi: they just call me Gigi.

GiGi: So it’s like, yeah,

GiGi: I’m like the bestie of the girls.

GiGi: So that’s why they started.

GiGi: Because when I also…

GiGi: One of the reason that when I was 12 years old,

GiGi: some of my classmates would consider me a little bit feminine.

GiGi: So they just like…

GiGi: because there is a very famous singer in China,

GiGi: Liang Yongqi.

GiGi: So she is also Gigi Leung.

GiGi: Gigi Leung.

Jeanette: I know her, yeah.

Jeanette: I do like her songs.

GiGi: Yeah, I also like her songs as well.

GiGi: But because my vocal tone is not qualified to sing her song.

GiGi: Anyway, so yeah.

GiGi: So that’s why some of the guys,

GiGi: if they consider me as being a little bit feminine,

GiGi: they just also using Gigi as a name to like…

GiGi: kind of like degrading me.

GiGi: To be mean.

Jeanette: You’re owning it.

Jeanette: You’re doing a good job.

GiGi: Yeah, so basically I’m just like from dick to Gigi.

GiGi: It’s like a big…

Maddie: It’s a massive shift.

GiGi: But it’s also saying that for me is that

GiGi: it doesn’t matter.

GiGi: No matter if I’m a dick or I’m a Gigi.

GiGi: I’m just me.

Jeanette: Yeah.

GiGi: And then it’s also just an easy way for you to like…

GiGi: because if you actually try to say my Chinese name is

GiGi: confusing for you to actually say it.

GiGi: So rather than like using my actual Chinese name,

GiGi: just call me whatever you want.

Jeanette: Isn’t that a bit ironic that you’re giving me an alternative

Maddie: and you’re saying call me whatever you’d like.

Maddie: And you’re here putting in the effort to try and

Maddie: call people exactly what they want to be called.

Maddie: And just the irony in what you just asked me.

Jeanette: But it’s interesting, isn’t it?

Jeanette: Because you’re obviously a linguistics student

Jeanette: and I’m a linguist who speaks Chinese.

Jeanette: And for me,

Jeanette: some of the Chinese names are quite difficult even now.

Jeanette: And for you as a linguistics student,

Jeanette: I expect it to be the same, right?

Jeanette: If you’re seeing a name like Gigi’s Chinese name,

Jeanette: you might think how do I pronounce that?

Maddie: I’ve not got a clue.

Maddie: If you put your name in front of me,

Maddie: not got a scooby-doo.

Maddie: I think I’d butcher it a million ways to one.

Jeanette: And that’s probably why many Chinese people

Jeanette: would find an English name.

Jeanette: And the other way around,

Jeanette: I mean, my name in Chinese is 柯珍.

Jeanette: Which again, I based on my own name.

Jeanette: There’s two last names.

Jeanette: My last name is “Sakel”.

Jeanette: And you could say “萨” the first bit

Jeanette: and “萨” the second bit.

Jeanette: And there’s two last names that are like that.

Jeanette: But I shortened it to “萨”.

Jeanette: And then Jeanette is usually “珍妮特”.

Jeanette: But I just shortened it to “珍”,

Jeanette: which would be Jane, I guess.

Jeanette: I think it works.

Jeanette: I quite, Gigi doesn’t like it.

Jeanette: I don’t like it.

GiGi: Because if he’s using Sakel…

Jeanette: the Sa,

GiGi: because Sa is also related to one of the “傻”.

GiGi: “傻” means silly.

GiGi: So basically she mean that

GiGi: if she speak it like using the same,

GiGi: using the incorrect tones

GiGi: or something like that,

GiGi: it mean that he is professor silly.

GiGi: Which is a little bit weird.

Jeanette: I don’t mind.

Jeanette: But it’s not that bad.

Jeanette: I think that makes me like the name even more.

GiGi: I don’t like it.

GiGi: But it’s like, maybe not.

GiGi: I don’t know.

GiGi: But it’s very interesting.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Jeanette: But I don’t use the “萨” bit anymore.

Jeanette: I just use 柯珍.

Jeanette: And I quite like that name.

Jeanette: Good news.

Jeanette: But I know you told me

Jeanette: it sounds a bit like an old “阿姨”.

Jeanette: And I could potentially find a slightly more.

GiGi: Yeah.

GiGi: Maybe I’m a little bit judgmental

GiGi: about the name of the “珍”.

GiGi: Because when I saw the name ”珍“,

GiGi: it’s that,

GiGi: just like you said that

GiGi: not a lot of new generation

GiGi: are using the name Richard.

GiGi: So for me,

GiGi: the “珍” is a very traditional way

GiGi: to the females are using as their names.

GiGi: So “珍”.

GiGi: So it also remind me of something like

GiGi: a “Cherish” or something like that,

GiGi: using the English name.

GiGi: So if you call yourself

GiGi: “Cherish” in English,

GiGi: it’s a little bit.

GiGi: I don’t know.

GiGi: A little bit too traditional, you know?

Jeanette: I guess I’m not very traditional.

Jeanette: But I quite like the name.

Jeanette: I still quite like the name.

GiGi: I just know that

GiGi: what I know about Jeanette

GiGi: is a very cool person.

GiGi: That using your name as “Cherish”

GiGi: is actually my interpretation of Jeanette.

GiGi: So that’s why I’d be thinking

GiGi: yeah,

GiGi: Jeanette worth deserve a better cooler name

GiGi: rather than using the name Cherish.

Jeanette: So what about Madeline?

Jeanette: So you prefer to use Maddie.

Maddie: I think it’s just what I’ve always been called

Maddie: growing up.

Maddie: I think Madeline seems quite formal

Maddie: in formal context.

Maddie: I sign emails off sometimes with Madeline.

Maddie: It’s like on birth certificate.

Maddie: It’s on official documents.

Maddie: And so it feels for official use only.

Maddie: And so Maddie is more conversational.

Maddie: Some people go even further

Maddie: and call me Mads in the short term.

Jeanette: And that has another connotation.

Jeanette: Mad is maddening.

GiGi: Exactly.

Jeanette: That in a way is also quite cool.

Maddie: I think it goes off

Maddie: to so many different things.

Maddie: Some people, some of my friends

Maddie: who are really, really silly

Maddie: take Mads and turn it into Mad Dog.

Maddie: I don’t know where that one’s come from.

Maddie: That’s picking up popularity.

Maddie: But yeah, because even my name,

Maddie: even Madeline as it is, is spelt

Maddie: quite differently to the way it normally is.

Maddie: I think it’s originally French name.

GiGi: Oh.

Maddie: Yeah.

Maddie: And I think it had the extra,

Maddie: it has an extra e in it,

Maddie: but mine doesn’t.

Maddie: So it’s just spelt M-A-D-E-L-I-N-E,

Maddie: made line, as opposed to Madeline.

Maddie: And fun fact,

Maddie: a long, long time ago,

Maddie: I had a look at some of the origins

Maddie: of where Madeline comes from.

Maddie: And from Mary of Magdalen in the Bible.

Jeanette: Oh, really?

Maddie: Yeah.So it actually stems from

Maddie: and I quote Jesus’s whore.

Maddie: And to make rub salt in the wounds,

Maddie: all the males in my family,

Maddie: all their names meant like great warrior,

Maddie: the god of war,

Maddie: like great general.

Maddie: And that was my one.

GiGi: This sounds like a little bit too

GiGi: testosterone.

Maddie: Yeah.

Jeanette: That’s what I mean.

Jeanette: I would own that though.

Jeanette: So your mom,

Jeanette: does she ever call you Madeline?

Maddie: Only when I’ve been,

Maddie: only when I’ve been a…

GiGi: Furious.

Maddie: Yeah, only when she’s furious.

Maddie: She whips out the full name.

Maddie: It’s Madeline.

Maddie: Again,

Maddie: only when she is shouting my name

Maddie: for whatever reason it might be.

Maddie: But other than that, no.

Maddie: She thinks my name is pretty.

Maddie: That’s why she chose it.

Maddie: Cause she thinks it’s pretty.

Maddie: She didn’t give it much thought

Maddie: beyond that, I don’t think.

Maddie: She thinks it just sounds nice.

Jeanette: So amongst your friends,

Jeanette: have you got many friends

Jeanette: that have shortened names as well?

Jeanette: Is that very common?

Maddie: Yeah, it’s very common.

Maddie: I know a couple of Millies

Maddie: down from Millicent and Amelia.

Maddie: Liv,

Maddie: Livvy from Olivia.

Jeanette: In Germany,

Jeanette: this is not the case at all.

Jeanette: So most people would have

Jeanette: just one name.

Jeanette: They might have a nickname,

Jeanette: but it’s not usually shortened.

Jeanette: So I think this is a very

Jeanette: British thing or very English thing.

Jeanette: English language thing,

Jeanette: which is I guess in the US as well,

Jeanette: right?

Jeanette: Bob,

Jeanette: For Robert and so on.

Jeanette: You may have some names there.

GiGi: Yeah, sometimes they also use

GiGi: one character as well.

GiGi: Sometimes when I’m writing

GiGi: the email,

GiGi: I’m just writing

GiGi: because I’m being lazy.

GiGi: I’m just putting G on the initial.

GiGi: So yeah, that’s all.

Jeanette: Oh, but in Latin script,

Jeanette: Latin script G,

Jeanette: because you wouldn’t,

Jeanette: in Chinese script you wouldn’t.

Jeanette: Yeah, I wouldn’t do that.

Jeanette: You would just like,

Jeanette: one character would be

Jeanette: the first part of your name.

Jeanette: So yeah.

Jeanette: Yeah, I sometimes put J

Jeanette: just when I’m lazy.

Jeanette: Yeah.

GiGi: Yeah, just remind me of

GiGi: Gossip Girl.

GiGi: Is that the B and X?

GiGi: XOXO.

GiGi: Yeah, very cool.

Jeanette: So we have a very big difference

Jeanette: to how things are in China.

GiGi: Yes, exactly.

Maddie: Massively so.

Jeanette: And for a student from China

Jeanette: who comes to Britain to study

Jeanette: or to any other country

Jeanette: in the West really,

Jeanette: some more so than others,

Jeanette: what advice would you give them

Jeanette: when they turn up here

Jeanette: and they’re confused?

GiGi: Okay.

Maddie: I think the main thing

Maddie: I’ve spoken to quite a few

Maddie: international students,

Maddie: a lot of them not all from China,

Maddie: but a lot of them from

Maddie: Asian countries.

Maddie: And I think one of the things

Maddie: they’ve struggled with is

Maddie: the humor aspect of it,

Maddie: I think is something

Maddie: that’s interesting

Maddie: that I think people

Maddie: keep struggling with

Maddie: is the dryness of the humor.

Maddie: In Britain.

Maddie: I don’t know if you found

Maddie: anything similar,

Maddie: but with the tone

Maddie: and intonation of British humor

Maddie: falls quite flat.

Maddie: And people can’t,

Maddie: maybe can’t quite decipher

Maddie: the sarcasm or the off-comment.

Maddie: Or it’s intended as a joke,

Maddie: but it can come across

Maddie: as just blatantly rude

Maddie: if the joke’s not being perceived.

Maddie: And so I’ve had a few

Maddie: conversations with people

Maddie: who have found it difficult

Maddie: to understand the sarcasm.

GiGi: Yes, we don’t understand

GiGi: the sarcasm.

GiGi: So, but however,

GiGi: because I’m a lecturer

GiGi: working in a UK institution.

GiGi: So, which means that

GiGi: I need to write

GiGi: student feedback.

GiGi: Yeah.

GiGi: So, because I need to

GiGi: write the student feedback

GiGi: sometimes that I need to be like

GiGi: not being very aggressive

GiGi: and need to be like

GiGi: milder tone now.

GiGi: So, there are some like,

GiGi: there’s some very famous one

GiGi: that they have some article

GiGi: the Chinese student

GiGi: come here to study.

GiGi: And then they say

GiGi: they have a black lingo

GiGi: of the English lecturers.

Maddie: There was, right?

GiGi: Black lingo.

GiGi: 黑话

GiGi: I don’t know how to

GiGi: translate it into English.

Jeanette: Black language or?

GiGi: Black language.

GiGi: Maybe just black language.

GiGi: Means that the hidden meanings

GiGi: of the English lecturer

GiGi: are talking about your assignment.

Maddie: Yeah.

GiGi: So, basically mean that

GiGi: if one of the English lecturers

GiGi: say that your work is interesting,

GiGi: it means that your work

GiGi: is very horrible.

GiGi: So, yeah.

GiGi: Yeah.

GiGi: It’s just like something like this.

GiGi: It’s a, I don’t know.

GiGi: For us, it’s actually like, yeah.

GiGi: When I’m teaching

GiGi: or something like that,

GiGi: I started to already

GiGi: from started to like

GiGi: started to use the same approach

GiGi: to talk about their work as well.

GiGi: So, yeah.

GiGi: It’s, I don’t know.

Jeanette: I mean, your work is interesting.

Jeanette: It can mean both your work is great,

Jeanette: but it can also mean,

Jeanette: you may want to improve this

Jeanette: a little bit, right?

Maddie: Interesting.

Maddie: Like, okay,

Maddie: I see what you’ve tried to do.

Maddie: You’ve just not done it

Maddie: very successfully.

Maddie: It’s how I’d gather that.

Maddie: I think I did a module last year

Maddie: with one of our lecturers,

Maddie: Mark, into culture communication.

Maddie: And one of the things

Maddie: you spoke about was the difference

Maddie: in Chinese and UK culture.

Maddie: And when you mentioned about that,

Maddie: the kind of hidden meaning,

Maddie: it kind of reminded me

Maddie: of the politeness idea,

Maddie: which is that in the UK,

Maddie: the less direct you are with something,

Maddie: the more polite you’re perceived.

Maddie: If I wanted to tell somebody something,

Maddie: if I wanted to criticize somebody,

Maddie: I wouldn’t say,

Maddie: I think it’s rubbish,

Maddie: you need to change it.

Maddie: I’d say,

Maddie: oh, that’s really good.

Maddie: Have you thought about

Maddie: maybe doing it another way?

Maddie: What about this way?

Maddie: Have you maybe thought about this?

Maddie: Just because I think maybe perhaps

Maddie: it could be better this way.

Maddie: The less indirect I am,

Maddie: the more polite it’s perceived.

Maddie: So if someone was to say to me,

Maddie: that’s rubbish,

Maddie: I think that’s the rudest person

Maddie: I’ve ever met in my entire life.

Maddie: Even if they’re doing it

Maddie: to help me,

Maddie: to help me improve the paper

Maddie: I just wrote,

Maddie: I can see the logic,

Maddie: I do,

Maddie: but my brain is hardwired

Maddie: to perceive that as,

Maddie: oh my gosh,

Maddie: I’m so embarrassed,

Maddie: that was really rude,

Maddie: I don’t know what to do now.

Jeanette: I’m struggling with that

Jeanette: as a German in Britain,

Jeanette: because this very indirect approach.

Maddie: I’ve noticed it sometimes

Maddie: in the way you speak.

Maddie: I’ve noticed it in the way

Maddie: Mina speaks Finnish.

Maddie: She’s got this directness to her.

Maddie: Even in email exchanges.

Maddie: I’m a,

Maddie: hey,

Maddie: hope everything’s well.

Maddie: Just checking in with this, this, this.

Maddie: Mina’s like brilliant,

Maddie: this time,

Maddie: this place,

Maddie: oh my goodness,

Maddie: okay.

Maddie: I have to remind myself that

Maddie: she’s not being rude,

Maddie: she’s not being aggressive,

Maddie: she’s just being direct.

Maddie: And that’s okay.

Jeanette: And it’s a cultural trade.

Maddie: Massively so.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Jeanette: And I think many Chinese students

Jeanette: coming here to study

Jeanette: will probably notice it.

Jeanette: It’s probably a bit more,

Jeanette: a bit closer to the Chinese culture,

Jeanette: the slightly more indirect approach

Jeanette: to things, right?

GiGi: I would consider that

GiGi: the Chinese student,

GiGi: when they’re finishing the degree

GiGi: and try to complete

GiGi: the study in here,

GiGi: I think that actually expecting

GiGi: some very direct suggestion

GiGi: about how to improve their work.

GiGi: Yes.

GiGi: So, yeah.

GiGi: But at the same time,

GiGi: would you consider that,

GiGi: that if you are my student,

GiGi: do you prefer me being more polite

GiGi: or being more suggestive

GiGi: about being very direct

GiGi: about the suggestion?

Maddie: I think it depends,

Maddie: it very much depends on the person.

Maddie: I think some people struggle

Maddie: to see past the blatant,

Maddie: what people perceive as criticism.

Maddie: I think it can be quite disheartening

Maddie: when you’re not used to being,

Maddie: people being direct with you,

Maddie: especially with work,

Maddie: especially with something

Maddie: you’re trying to improve on.

Maddie: But honestly,

Maddie: the route I would take

Maddie: is the overt politeness of,

Maddie: oh, have you maybe tried to do this?

Maddie: I think people respond to it better.

GiGi: Hmm.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Jeanette: So, this is one to learn.

GiGi: Yeah.

Maddie: So, you asked about,

Maddie: if I have any advice.

Maddie: Yeah.

Maddie: My advice would be,

Maddie: be tentative,

Maddie: be tentative with your language,

Maddie: throw in so many unnecessary,

Maddie: or maybe coulds,

Maddie: woulds and shoulds.

Maddie: Is the advice that I could offer.

Maddie: So, when you ask somebody

Maddie: something,

Maddie: just say could,

Maddie: could I have?

Maddie: Excuse me,

Maddie: could you possibly

Maddie: show me the way to the bathroom?

GiGi: Yeah.

Jeanette: Okay.

Maddie: Do you know where the bathroom is?

Maddie: I don’t suppose,

Maddie: I’m really sorry to bother you.

Maddie: Do you know where the bathroom is?

Maddie: As opposed to,

Maddie: it’s asking the exact same question

Maddie: and I recognize that it’s the same thing,

Maddie: but it comes across so differently.

Maddie: Hello, where’s the bathroom?

Jeanette: I remember that,

Jeanette: when I first moved to Britain,

Jeanette: I was a postdoc

Jeanette: at the University of Manchester.

Jeanette: This is a long time ago.

Jeanette: And I went to the canteen

Jeanette: with one of my colleagues

Jeanette: and I said,

Jeanette: Oh, I want that baguette.

Jeanette: And my colleague was falling over.

Jeanette: I was telling me

Jeanette: how utterly rude I was.

Maddie: If I was there,

Maddie: I’d be like,

Maddie: Oh, I’m really sorry about her.

Maddie: Can she please have that baguette?

Maddie: If you have the time to spare.

GiGi: Yeah.

GiGi: Yeah, I guess,

GiGi: yeah, I can see that.

GiGi: Now, because I’m working here

GiGi: for one year now.

GiGi: Sometimes when I received the email

GiGi: from the Chinese student,

GiGi: when they tried to ask me

GiGi: for some reference letter,

GiGi: sometimes I can see

GiGi: that some of the student

GiGi: actually wrote something like that.

GiGi: Oh my God.

GiGi: I started to feel that,

GiGi: yeah, my Chinese student

GiGi: is kind of rude

GiGi: when we’re looking at the email.

Maddie: It’s interesting,

Maddie: because even I remember

Maddie: way back in GCSEs and A-levels,

Maddie: I was speaking to people

Maddie: who were learning other languages.

Maddie: They were trying to substitute

Maddie: this English politeness

Maddie: into set phrases

Maddie: that just weren’t working.

Maddie: So with the “I want that baguette”,

Maddie: I think when we were in French,

Maddie: I think to want is “je voudrais”,

Maddie: say “je voudrais” and “baguette”

Maddie: or whatever it might be.

Maddie: I remember having the conversation

Maddie: with the French teachers being like,

Maddie: Oh, it just seems so impolite.

Maddie: I want that baguette.

Maddie: That’s still more polite

Maddie: than in German.

Maddie: I think it’s the same in Spanish.

Maddie: I think I could be wrong.

Maddie: Is it like “yo quiero”

Maddie: or “I want”?

Jeanette: Yeah, you can use it in a polite form

Jeanette: and not quite so polite form.

Maddie: I remember having conversations

Maddie: with people about trying to

Maddie: insert that English mindset

Maddie: into these other languages.

Maddie: It just doesn’t translate

Maddie: because saying “I want that”

Maddie: isn’t deemed impolite.

Maddie: But in my mind,

Maddie: I want to say,

Maddie: sorry,

Maddie: could I possibly have that?

Maddie: Is it OK if I have that?

Maddie: And it’s just unnecessary.

GiGi: Would you consider

GiGi: this kind of language differences

GiGi: causing this kind of misinterpretation

GiGi: of being rude,

GiGi: of being impolite?

GiGi: Would it become a big factor

GiGi: for causing the difficulty

GiGi: to meeting new friends

GiGi: from an international background?

Maddie: I’m going to say yes.

Maddie: I think less with the politeness,

Maddie: more with what I was saying earlier

Maddie: about the sarcasm and humor.

Maddie: I think I know a lot of people

Maddie: who bond via humor in the UK,

Maddie: especially if it snaps

Maddie: into place with people,

Maddie: then it does.

Maddie: And that’s how people get on,

Maddie: is the kind of people

Maddie: have linked up

Maddie: really similar humours.

Maddie: And I think it’s hard to create.

Maddie: You don’t get me wrong.

Maddie: You can converse

Maddie: and you can be friendly

Maddie: and make friends with

Maddie: whoever you’d like.

Maddie: You don’t need to be

Maddie: from the same international

Maddie: background by any means.

Maddie: But I think it makes it easier

Maddie: to form those instant connections.

Maddie: When those things

Maddie: are mutually understood.

Maddie: Because I don’t think

Maddie: I quite realised how

Maddie: integral those things

Maddie: that are quite inherently

Maddie: British are

Maddie: when I talk about the humor

Maddie: until I was speaking

Maddie: to international students.

Maddie: And I was like,

Maddie: Oh, I’m going to reevaluate

Maddie: the way I’m saying things,

Maddie: because I will just come across

Maddie: as blatantly rude and mean.

GiGi: So if one of the students

GiGi: are coming here

GiGi: for one year study

GiGi: of their master program,

GiGi: and then they want to

GiGi: meet some UK friends,

GiGi: what would be

GiGi: the best approach?

GiGi: Do you have any suggestion

GiGi: for them if they would like

GiGi: to meet some new friends

GiGi: when they’re studying here?

GiGi: Any suggestion to like…

Maddie: I had a flatmate

Maddie: in first year

Maddie: who was doing her master’s.

Maddie: And she was from China.

Maddie: I’m not sure where about.

Maddie: And she was so lovely.

Maddie: She sat me down.

Maddie: She said,

Maddie: I’m trying to make new friends.

Maddie: I’m trying to improve my English.

Maddie: And I’d love if we could

Maddie: have more conversations.

Maddie: And I’d love if we could

Maddie: hang out a little bit more.

Maddie: Her name was YC.

Maddie: I couldn’t tell you

Maddie: what her Chinese name was.

Maddie: But just really lovely.

Maddie: And she was just

Maddie: quite open with it.

Maddie: And I think people

Maddie: respect openness.

Maddie: And I think it makes sense

Maddie: to people if you were to say…

Maddie: If you just explained,

Maddie: like,Hey, I’m trying to

Maddie: make new friends.

Maddie: Or hey, I’m trying to

Maddie: improve my English.

Maddie: But beyond that, I think…

Maddie: I don’t think it’s that

Maddie: different making friends.

Maddie: I think speak to the people

Maddie: on your course.

Maddie: Join the societies

Maddie: that you’re interested in.

Maddie: Because mutual interest

Maddie: brings people together.

Maddie: You’re interested in the same topic.

Maddie: That’s why you’re both

Maddie: studying it.

Maddie: You’re living in the same place.

Maddie: Conversation.

Maddie: You have the same hobbies.

Maddie: You’re in the same societies.

Maddie: It makes sense.

Jeanette: I think hobbies

Jeanette: are really important, right?

Jeanette: Do what you enjoy.

Jeanette: And find people that way.

Jeanette: And I know, like,

Jeanette: you’re playing badminton, right?

Maddie: Yes.

Jeanette: You’ve got quite a few…

Jeanette: quite an international team.

Maddie: Yes, quite an international team, yeah.

Maddie: And I think…

Maddie: it’s…

Maddie: they all speak

Maddie: in, like, fluent English.

Maddie: And but there are a couple

Maddie: that are a little bit

Maddie: more broken English.

Maddie: And when it comes to us talking,

Maddie: us conversing,

Maddie: us having a game together,

Maddie: a lot of it,

Maddie: because it’s a hobby,

Maddie: we don’t have to speak.

Maddie: There’s other movements we can do.

Maddie: There’s other ways we can connect

Maddie: beyond language.

Maddie: So if you don’t…

Maddie: if it’s…

Maddie: if the idea of having to speak English

Maddie: can become quite tedious

Maddie: and exhausting

Maddie: when you’ve done it all day,

Maddie: every day,

Maddie: and it’s your second language

Maddie: and you keep slipping up,

Maddie: it gets quite demoralising,

Maddie: and it gets quite exhausting

Maddie: after a certain amount of time

Maddie: to have your brain

Maddie: constantly switched on,

Maddie: then I know people who are

Maddie: joined, like, dance societies

Maddie: and who have made friends

Maddie: because they’re in

Maddie: societies together,

Maddie: but they don’t…

Maddie: doesn’t necessarily always

Maddie: revolve around speaking

Maddie: and chatting,

Maddie: and that’s okay,

Maddie: it’s still a friendship nonetheless.

Maddie: It’s still bonding with people.

Jeanette: Fantastic.

Jeanette: That sounds like really good advice.

Jeanette: Yeah.

Jeanette: Well, we’ve talked about

Jeanette: loads of different things

Jeanette: today, haven’t we?

Jeanette: Yeah, we have.

GiGi: Yeah, it’s nice.

Jeanette: Yeah, it’s been really,

Jeanette: really lovely

Jeanette: to have you here, Maddie.

Maddie: Thank you very much

Maddie: for having me.

Jeanette: Yeah, thanks so much

Jeanette: for coming and joining

Jeanette: our podcast.

Maddie: It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Jeanette: Okay, bye.

GiGi: Bye-bye.

Jeanette: 欢迎收看我们鸡同鸭讲播客,我是柯珍。
GiGi: 我是郑行之GiGi。
Jeanette: 好,那今天我们有一个嘉宾叫Maddie。
Jeanette: 你好，Maddie
Maddie: 大家好。非常感谢你们今天邀请我和大家在一起。
Jeanette: 好, 那Maddie是一个英国人, 所以我们会说英语录我们的播客。
Jeanette: Maddie，你能简单介绍一下自己吗？
Maddie: 大家好，我叫Maddie，刚刚完成大学二年级的学业，我学习英语语言和语言学。
Maddie: 我马上就要上三年级了，因为是暑假，这个暑假我在珍妮特那里实习，所以我一直在帮你做一些零零碎碎的事情。
Jeanette: 太棒了，非常感谢。
Jeanette: 好了，现在我们邀请 Maddie，是因为我们知道，人们来到英国后，有时会为一个话题而纠结。
GiGi: 是的。
Jeanette: 我知道 GiGi，你也曾为此挣扎过，不是吗？
GiGi: 是的，在我来英国当讲师之前，我在中国的一所大学当了 20 个月的讲师。
GiGi: 所以大部分时间我还是用中文讲课。
GiGi: 然而，来到这里之后，我面临的最大挑战之一就是如何将他、她和 TA 分开。
GiGi: 因为在中文中，当我们用中文书写 “他”、”她”、”它” 时，他们是不同的。
GiGi: 但是，当我们说中文时，它们听起来是一样的。
GiGi: 所以它们就像他、她、它一样，都是一样的。
GiGi: 因此，对我来说，尤其是当我需要与学生互动时，因为他们有太多的背景、
GiGi: 所以我的一些学生用他们作为代词。
GiGi: 因此，对我来说，不再需要使用它们了。
GiGi: 这是因为当我说话时，我已经分不清是用 “他 “还是用 “她 “了。
GiGi: 所以对我来说，不是他们的情况，而是他/她的情况。
GiGi: 我已经被它搞糊涂了。
Jeanette: 好吧，我们有代词，他/她，但也有他们。
GiGi: Maddie，它们是什么？
Maddie: 因此，它们是正常的非二元人使用的代词。
Maddie: 这意味着有些人并不认同性别规范。
Maddie: 因此，”二元 “的定义也意味着这一点。所以男孩和女孩就是性别。
Maddie: 现在，非二元人相信什么，LGBTQ 群体中的其他很多人相信…
Maddie: 那就是性别不应该如此受限，不应该仅仅局限于这两种规范。
Maddie: 因此，如果你是非二元性别，那就是你的性别存在于这些规范之外。
Maddie: 你不认为自己是男孩，也不认为自己是女孩，你介于两者之间。
Maddie: 不一定非要从中间分裂。它可以更男性化，也可以更女性化、
Maddie: 但这意味着你不认为自己是个女孩，你不想使用她/她代词、
Maddie: 因为这是我们识别女孩的方式，而你不想用 “他/她”，因为这是我们识别男孩的方式。
Maddie: 中间的东西，就是 TA 们。
Jeanette: 这在英国很常见吗？
Maddie: 我认为，它的威力越来越大、
Maddie: 关于原因有很多不同的说法，但我认为
Maddie: 最积极的论点往往是：
Maddie: 随着时间的推移，人们越来越喜欢做自己，也越来越喜欢做自己、
Maddie: 人们想要展示这一点，人们想要活出真实的自己。
Jeanette: 是啊，你什么时候开始接触这个的，GiGi？
GiGi: 我的一个学生…他……，呃，我已经在…
GiGi: 是的，TA们在使用，因为我的大脑一直告诉我 “TA在使用”、
GiGi: 所以，对我来说，TA们是在使用，但实际上我说的是一个人，但我用的是他们。
GiGi: 他们使用的代词是 “TA”。因此，当我与 TA 们交流时，
GiGi: 是我在跟 TA 说话，而不是在说他们。
GiGi: 因此，对我来说，即使对我来说，即使对我来说，我目前的心态是，当我需要谈论 TA们时、
GiGi: 是我在想”他们”，他们就像是一群人。
GiGi: 但实际上，我的心里只想着一个人。
GiGi: 所以，这才是具有挑战性的部分，因为我说的是一个人、
GiGi: 但在我学习英语时，英语术语实际上是指一群人。
GiGi: 因此，这是一个具有挑战性的部分。
Jeanette: 所以玛蒂，是 “他们是 “而不是 “他们是”，对吗？即使我们说的是一个人。
Maddie: 是的，很明显，在英语中，你可以用 “他们 “来表示一群人，也可以是复数、
Jeanette: 但它也可以指个人，不仅在非二元语境中，在其他语境中也有使用。
Maddie: 例如，如果我说，哦，我去了商店，收银员给了我零钱。
Maddie: 那还是在说一个人。我说的还是那个收银员。
Maddie: 而这一切都只是在散发他们的性别。
Maddie: 我并不是说收银员是二进制，但性别与故事无关。那为什么要写进去呢？
Maddie: 你什么时候会用到这个？什么时候你会说，哦，他们把我的现金给我了？
Jeanette: 性别并不重要？
Maddie: 我认为这是因人而异的。
Maddie: 我不认为人们有什么特定的方法来决定什么时候用，什么时候不用。
Maddie: 我认为，如果我这样说，也同样有道理，没有人会有不同的看法、
Maddie: 然后他把零钱还给我，或者她把零钱还给我，或者他们把零钱还给我。
Maddie: 这没什么区别。
GiGi: 但我认为我的语法错误在于，因为我想用 they are、
GiGi: 但当你说到 “They “时，我的大脑却一直在告诉我、
GiGi: 你实际上没有在句子中使用 they is 或使用 are。
GiGi: 对我来说，如果我想使用它们，就可以使用、
GiGi: 然后，我的心态其实一直在告诉我，我需要使用 They is。
GiGi: 因此，我认为这是我面临的挑战。
GiGi: 是的，所以我想我可能还需要一点时间才能明白，是的，我现在明白了。
GiGi: 所以我想知道
Jeanette: 玛蒂，你认识非二元人吗，他们对此会有什么反应？
Maddie: 我觉得我认识的非二元人，他们都能理解我。
Maddie: 我认为，在探索和自我发现的过程中，你必须做很多事情、
Maddie: 我想，这一定会让你成为一个善解人意、富有同情心的人。
Maddie: 因此，我认为没有人会深感不安。
Maddie: 我认为，如果你在性别问题上犯任何错误、
Maddie: 我认为这是可以理解的，因为我认为这不是恶意的。
Maddie: 你并不想下流。
Maddie: 你并不想伤害任何人的感情。
Maddie: 这只是一个错误，没关系。
Maddie: 所以我认识的非二元人也不会介意。
Maddie: 你是他们的老师
Maddie: 你在那里教他们。
Maddie: 你想要尊重别人，这很可爱。
Maddie: 确实如此。
Maddie: 但只要你尽力了
Maddie: 我不认为任何人会有什么大的抱怨。
Maddie: 我真的不知道。
Maddie: 我想我能理解有些人为什么会说这可能会冒犯别人
Maddie: 在他/她的事情方面。
Maddie: 但对于 “非二元 “的说法就不那么认为了，因为我认为即使是现在的英语、
Maddie: 我想这甚至是英国人也会犯的错误。
Maddie: 因此，我认为你不必担心伤害任何人的感情。
GiGi: 我认为这里的主要考虑因素是善良
GiGi: 以及他们如何平等对待他人，而不是犯语法错误吧。
Jeanette: 但是，吉吉却犯了另外一个错误、
Jeanette: 你说你经常做的是他/她的区分。
Jeanette: 所以，当你谈到人的时候、
Jeanette: 在中文里，显然一直都是 “TA”。
Jeanette: 当你谈到这里的人们时
Jeanette: 你可能会说 “她 “或 “他 “而弄错性别。
GiGi: 是的，没错。
GiGi: 所以是的，我们根本分不清他、她和 TA。
GiGi: 所以我们只是用了同一个词。
Jeanette: 直到大约一百年前、
Jeanette: 在书面语言中也没有区别。
Jeanette: 好的。现在，书面语言显然有了区别
Jeanette: 在您有他/她的地方，写法不同、
Jeanette: 但都念 TA。
Jeanette: 但在英语中，显然不仅仅是书面语言、
Jeanette: 但也在口语中
Jeanette: 我们必须做出这种区分。
Jeanette: 再加上他们的复杂性、
Jeanette: 我们知道其他语言也是这样做的吧？
Jeanette: 玛蒂，你有什么经验吗？
Maddie: 是的，我知道，当然，我的一位朋友和一位讲师是芬兰人
Maddie: 而他们却不加区分。
Jeanette: 真的吗？
Maddie: 是的，在芬兰语中，他们说话时不区分性别。
Maddie: 于是有人向我这样表述：
Maddie: 她尝试的时候很有趣、
Maddie: 在她努力学习的时候，讲师是个女人、
Maddie: 在她学习英语的时候，她并没有努力学习英语、
Maddie: 因为我是一个讲英语的人、
Maddie: 总是唠唠叨叨的
Maddie: 脑子里总是萦绕着一件事
Maddie: 这就是说，如果有人使用中性代词、
Maddie: 是的，但什么性别？
Maddie: 什么性别？
Maddie: 那么，是男孩还是女孩？
Maddie: 我也不知道为什么。
Maddie: 我想也许是因为我们使用了性别代词、
Maddie: 只是，感觉故事少了一部分。
Maddie: 但对于讲芬兰语的人来说，这并没有什么区别。
Maddie: 这没什么区别。
Maddie: 他们可以全程使用中性代词。
Maddie: 但芬兰语是我知道的一个例子。
Jeanette: 是的，可以说芬兰语比中文还要好、
Jeanette: 因为芬兰语的代词是 “Hen”、
Jeanette: 写着 “Hen”、
Jeanette: 无论是男性还是女性。
Jeanette: 所以，从头到尾都是一样的。
Jeanette: 因此，男性和女性的区别并不存在
Jeanette: 在某些语言中，人们可以绕过它。
Jeanette: 但也会犯错误、
Jeanette: 很明显，当他们学习一种带有性别色彩的语言时。
Jeanette: 因此，使用非二元代词
Jeanette: 这在我们的大学生中很常见。
Jeanette: 此外，我还从学校，我女儿的学校了解到一些情况、
Jeanette: 有很多非二元学生。
Jeanette: 但在我们这一代人中
Jeanette: 据我所知，还真没有。
Jeanette: 怎么会这样？
Maddie: 我想，说实话、
Maddie: 我认为会有无数个理由。
Maddie: 但我想到的是
Maddie: 当我们谈论语言时，人们会说
Maddie: 这种语言是武断的。
Maddie: 我们赋予词语以意义。
Maddie: 麦克风等词语
Maddie: 实际上与声音无关
Maddie: 从我嘴里说出来的。
Maddie: 我们完全赋予了它意义。
Maddie: 我认为随着时间的推移、
Maddie: 我认为这给了人们更多的时间
Maddie: 和更多的思考机会
Maddie: 也许性别也是任意的。
Maddie: 如果这些想法和影响
Maddie: 与男性和男性气质有关
Maddie: 以及女性和女性气质、
Maddie: 你可以开始对它们进行更深入的剖析。
Maddie: 在我看来，绝对有、
Maddie: 女人味没有理由
Maddie: 应该与女性有关、
Maddie: 女性（femme）和女性（femme）这个词吧。
Maddie: 我认为，非二元的人
Maddie: 的分离、
Maddie: 男子汉大丈夫
Maddie: 并将女性气质从女性中分离出来。
Maddie: 我认为只要你意识到
Maddie: 也许可以重新分配
Maddie: 可以重新评估这一思维过程、
Maddie: 我认为它开辟了这样一个
Maddie: 更有趣的性别视角。
Maddie: 因此
Maddie: 如果你从小就喜欢穿裙子
Maddie: 喜欢化妆，喜欢女人味、
Maddie: 如果你是男孩，那就没关系、
Maddie: 因为男人不必与
Maddie: 男性气质。
Maddie: 它们还可以与女性气质联系在一起。
Maddie: 它可以在中间某处相遇。
Maddie: 您可能希望与其中任何一方建立联系。
Maddie: 我认为随着时间的推移
Maddie: 它只是让人们把所有东西都挑出来
Maddie: 再评估一下
Maddie: 再分析一下
Maddie: 让他们自己去解决
Maddie: 再多一点点
Jeanette: 因此，社会基本上已经发生了变化
Jeanette: 在过去的几十年里。
GiGi: 视情况而定。
GiGi: 我想说要看情况。
Maddie: 继续。
GiGi: 所以在我10岁的时候
GiGi: 大概五六岁吧
GiGi: 我小时候经常哭。
GiGi: 然后为了阻止我哭泣、
GiGi: 我爷爷放了一些很苦的东西、
GiGi: 把苦涩的粉末倒在我的手指上。
GiGi: 所以当我舔它的时候
GiGi: 之类的话、
GiGi: 他们需要喜欢、
GiGi: 因为它很苦、
GiGi: 之类的话。
GiGi: 所以他们一直告诉我要有男子气概
GiGi: 一点点。
GiGi: 别哭了
GiGi: 像个男人
GiGi: 结果发现我不是。
GiGi: 所以我想说的是
GiGi: 是啊，所以当我来到这里，
GiGi: 我的第一个英文名字其实是 Dick、
GiGi: D -I -C
GiGi: 但用英语来说
GiGi: 迪克其实是个很男性的名字，对吗？
GiGi: 所以是的。
Jeanette: 我的意思是，最初它只是指理查德，对吗？
Maddie: 是的，这是理查德的简称。
Jeanette: 是的，这些简称在英语中很常见、
Jeanette: 不是吗？
Maddie: 是啊
GiGi: 迪克是理查德的亲戚？
Jeanette: 是啊
Jeanette: 是的，就是理查德。
Jeanette: 还有英语、
Jeanette: 至少大多数较长的名字会有一个较短的形式。
Jeanette: 原来你叫玛德琳
Maddie: 我叫玛德琳
Jeanette: 但简称为 Maddie。
GiGi: 但我以为，”富人 “是理查德的简称。
Maddie: 可以是
Jeanette: 已经改变了、
Jeanette: 因为迪克显然是理查德的简称。
Jeanette: 但它又有了第二层含义。
GiGi: 是的，是的。
Jeanette: 正因为有了第二层含义、
Jeanette: 超过一定年龄的人仍然可以使用 Dick 这个名字、
Jeanette: 因为他们以前就是这么做的。
Jeanette: 但年轻人可能不会使用这个名字、
Jeanette: 只是因为它的附加意义，对吧，玛蒂？
Maddie: 不，是的，我同意。
Maddie: 我不知道。
Maddie: 我觉得理查德这个名字在我们这一代人中并不流行、
Maddie: 不管怎么说，现在还是这样。
Maddie: 我认识的理查兹不多
Maddie: 不是人们的父亲。
Maddie: 但不，我也意识到了这一点、
Maddie: 就是它们往往缩短为富裕、
Maddie: 而不是迪克。
GiGi: 因此，如果中国学生想在这里学习
GiGi: 他们想创建一个英文名字、
GiGi: 他们应该避免什么样的男性名字？
GiGi: 因为有时名字有点多
GiGi: 他们应该避免。
GiGi: 我在看一些纪录片时会想起这句话
GiGi: 或者只是喜欢网上的视频什么的、
GiGi: 他们一直在谈论他们有很多
GiGi: 形容厕所的词语。
GiGi: 所以即使是约翰，J-O-H-N，约翰、
GiGi: 也是另一种呼叫厕所的方法。
Maddie: 那是约翰吗？
GiGi: 约翰，是的。
Maddie: 哦，像约翰尼那样？
Jeanette: 是的，但并不常用。
Maddie: 不，它根本不常用。
Jeanette: 不，我知道很多人都叫约翰、
Jeanette: 而约翰是一个非常普通的名字。
GiGi: 没错。
GiGi: 是啊，因为名字太多了、
GiGi: 它们有点像禁忌。
GiGi: 那么，我到底应该用什么样的名字呢？
GiGi: 所以这就像一个非常…
Maddie: 我认为这是一个有趣的问题。
Maddie: 我不…
Maddie: 在我的脑海中，我想不出有谁的
Maddie: 像……的名字
GiGi: 非常冒犯。
Maddie: 是的，非常冒犯。
Maddie: 我想…
Maddie: 你是想问男性的名字吗？
GiGi: 是的。
Maddie: 我想我同意之前说过的话。
Maddie: 我觉得男性名字尤其如此、
Maddie: 很多都缩短了。
Maddie: 蒂莫西之于蒂姆，本杰明之于本。
Maddie: 因此，很多人的名字都比较短、
Maddie: 这种情况往往很常见。
Jeanette: 我认为对于一个中国人来说
Jeanette: 寻找一个英文名字
Jeanette: 我认为这些缩写形式通常都很不错。
Jeanette: 就像本和蒂姆一样。
Jeanette: 约翰和保罗
Jeanette: 詹姆斯，一个大的。
Jeanette: 皮特，詹姆斯
Jeanette: 是啊
GiGi: 是啊
Jeanette: 我觉得这是你的传统名字、
Jeanette: 非常普通的名字，通常都还不错。
Jeanette: 所以，如果你不想引人注目、
Jeanette: 你会选择这样的名字。
Jeanette: 但是吉吉，你选择了吉吉。
Jeanette: 为什么会这样？
GiGi: 是的，因为我的中文名字就叫郑行之。
GiGi: 所以我没有很多男性朋友、
GiGi: 但我有很多好朋友、
GiGi: 我有很多女孩朋友。
GiGi: 所以，和他们做朋友吧。
GiGi: 所以，是的，大多数时候都是这样、
GiGi: 他们就叫我 Gigi。
GiGi: 所以，这就像，是的、
GiGi: 我就像女孩们的闺蜜。
GiGi: 这就是他们开始的原因。
GiGi: 因为当我也…
GiGi: 其中一个原因是，在我 12 岁的时候、
GiGi: 我的一些同学会认为我有点女性化。
GiGi: 所以他们只是喜欢…
GiGi: 因为中国有一位非常有名的歌手、
GiGi: 梁永琪
GiGi: 所以，她也是梁咏琪。
GiGi: 梁咏琪
Jeanette: 我认识她
Jeanette: 我很喜欢她的歌。
GiGi: 是啊，我也很喜欢她的歌。
GiGi: 但因为我的嗓音没有资格唱她的歌。
GiGi: 总之，是的。
GiGi: 这就是为什么有些人
GiGi: 如果他们认为我有点女性化的话、
GiGi: 他们也只是用 Gigi 作为喜欢的名字……
GiGi: 有点像贬低我。
GiGi: 说得刻薄一点。
Jeanette: 你拥有它。
Jeanette: 你做得很好
GiGi: 是啊，所以基本上我就像从鸡巴到吉吉。
GiGi: 这就像一个大…
Maddie: 这是一个巨大的转变。
GiGi: 但对我来说，这也意味着
GiGi: 没关系。
GiGi: 不管我是混蛋还是吉吉。
GiGi: 我就是我
Jeanette: 是啊
GiGi: 这也是你喜欢……
GiGi: 因为如果你真的想说我的中文名字是
GiGi: 你说出来会让人困惑。
GiGi: 所以，与其用我真正的中文名字、
GiGi: 随便你怎么叫我
Jeanette: 你给我另一种选择，是不是有点讽刺？
Maddie: 而你却说，随便你怎么称呼我。
Maddie: 而你在这里付出努力，试图
Maddie: 准确地称呼人们想要的称呼。
Maddie: 你刚才问我的问题很有讽刺意味。
Jeanette: 但这很有趣，不是吗？
Jeanette: 因为你显然是语言学专业的学生
Jeanette: 我是一个会说中文的语言学家。
Jeanette: 对我来说
Jeanette: 有些中文名字现在也很难记。
Jeanette: 还有作为语言学学生的你、
Jeanette: 我希望它是一样的，对吗？
Jeanette: 如果你看到的名字像 Gigi 的中文名、
Jeanette: 你可能会想，这个词怎么念？
Maddie: 我一点头绪都没有。
Maddie: 如果你把你的名字放在我面前、
Maddie: 没有史酷比
Maddie: 我想我会用一百万种方法来处理它。
Jeanette: 这也许就是为什么许多中国人
Jeanette: 会找到一个英文名字。
Jeanette: 反之亦然、
Jeanette: 我是说，我的中文名字叫柯珍。
Jeanette: 这也是我根据自己的名字起的。
Jeanette: 有两个姓
Jeanette: 我姓 “Sakel”。
Jeanette: 你可以说 “萨 “的前半部分
Jeanette: 第二位是 “萨”。
Jeanette: 有两个姓氏也是这样。
Jeanette: 但我把它简称为 “萨”。
Jeanette: 然后，Jeanette 通常是 “珍妮特”。
Jeanette: 但我只是把它简称为 “珍”、
Jeanette: 我猜应该是简。
Jeanette: 我认为这很有效。
Jeanette: 我很喜欢，吉吉不喜欢。
Jeanette: 我不喜欢这样。
GiGi: 因为如果他使用 Sakel…
Jeanette: Sa、
GiGi: 因为阿 Sa 也与其中一个 “傻 “有关。
GiGi: “傻 “的意思是愚蠢。
GiGi: 因此，她的意思基本上是
GiGi: 如果她说起话来就像在用一样、
GiGi: 使用错误的声调
GiGi: 之类的话、
GiGi: 这意味着他是个愚蠢的教授。
GiGi: 这有点奇怪。
Jeanette: 我不介意。
Jeanette: 但也没那么糟。
Jeanette: 我觉得这让我更喜欢这个名字了。
GiGi: 我不喜欢这样。
GiGi: 但这就像，也许不是。
GiGi: 我不知道。
GiGi: 但这非常有趣。
Jeanette: 是啊
Jeanette: 但我不再使用 “萨 “字。
Jeanette: 我只用柯珍。
Jeanette: 我很喜欢这个名字。
Jeanette: 好消息
Jeanette: 但我知道你告诉过我
Jeanette: 听起来有点像古老的 “阿姨”。
Jeanette: 我有可能找到更多的。
GiGi: 是啊
GiGi: 也许我有点妄加评论
GiGi: 关于 “珍 “的名称。
GiGi: 因为当我看到 “珍 “这个名字时、
GiGi: 就是这样、
GiGi: 就像你说的
GiGi: 新生代不多
GiGi: 正在使用理查德这个名字。
GiGi: 所以对我来说
GiGi: 珍 “是一种非常传统的方式
GiGi: 到女性使用的名字。
GiGi: So “珍”.
GiGi: 这也让我想起了
GiGi: 一个 “珍惜 “之类的词、
GiGi: 使用英文名称。
GiGi: 所以，如果你自称
GiGi: 英语中的 “珍惜”、
GiGi: 有一点
GiGi: 我不知道。
GiGi: 有点太传统了，你知道吗？
Jeanette: 我想我不是很传统。
Jeanette: 但我挺喜欢这个名字。
Jeanette: 我还是挺喜欢这个名字的。
GiGi: 我只知道
GiGi: 我对珍妮特的了解
GiGi: 是一个非常酷的人。
GiGi: 把你的名字用成 “Cherish”
GiGi: 实际上是我对珍妮特的诠释。
GiGi: 所以我想
GiGi: 是的
GiGi: 珍妮特值得拥有一个更酷的名字
GiGi: 而不是使用 Cherish 这个名字。
Jeanette: 那么玛德琳呢？
Jeanette: 所以你更喜欢用 Maddie。
Maddie: 我想这就是我一直以来的名字吧
Maddie: 成长。
Maddie: 我觉得玛德琳看起来很正式
Maddie: 在正式场合。
Maddie: 我有时会和玛德琳一起签收邮件。
Maddie: 就像出生证明一样。
Maddie: 这是官方文件。
Maddie: 因此，我觉得它只能用于官方用途。
Maddie: 因此，麦迪更善于交谈。
Maddie: 有些人走得更远
Maddie: 短期内请叫我 Mads。
Jeanette: 这还有另一层含义。
Jeanette: 疯狂令人抓狂。
GiGi: 没错。
Jeanette: 这在某种程度上也很酷。
Maddie: 我想它会爆炸
Maddie: 对这么多不同的事情。
Maddie: 有些人，我的一些朋友
Maddie: 他们真的真的很傻
Maddie: 把 Mads 变成 Mad Dog。
Maddie: 我不知道这是从哪儿冒出来的。
Maddie: 这一点正在受到欢迎。
Maddie: 但是，是的，因为连我的名字、
Maddie: 即使是 “玛德琳”，其拼写也是
Maddie: 与通常的方式截然不同。
Maddie: 我想这原本是法国名字。
GiGi: 哦。
Maddie: 是啊
Maddie: 我想它还有额外的、
Maddie: 它多了一个 “e”、
Maddie: 但我的没有。
Maddie: 所以它的拼写是 M-A-D-E-L-I-N-E、
Maddie: 而不是玛德琳。
Maddie: 还有一个有趣的事实、
Maddie: 很久很久以前
Maddie: 我看了一些起源
Maddie: 玛德琳来自哪里
Maddie: 还有《圣经》中的抹大拉的玛丽。
Jeanette: 哦，真的吗？
Maddie: 是的，所以它实际上源于
Maddie: 我引用耶稣的妓女的话
Maddie: 并在伤口上撒盐、
Maddie: 我家所有的男性、
Maddie: 他们的名字都意味着伟大的战士、
Maddie: 战神
Maddie: 就像伟大的将军。
Maddie: 这就是我的作品。
GiGi: 这听起来有点太
GiGi: 睾酮。
Maddie: 是啊
Jeanette: 我就是这个意思。
Jeanette: 不过，我会拥有它。
Jeanette: 你妈妈也是
Jeanette: 她叫过你玛德琳吗？
Maddie: 只有当我去过的时候、
Maddie: 只有当我是一个…
GiGi: 愤怒。
Maddie: 是啊，只有在她发怒的时候。
Maddie: 她拿出了全名。
Maddie: 是玛德琳
Maddie: 再来一次
Maddie: 只有当她喊着我的名字时
Maddie: 不管是什么原因。
Maddie: 但除此之外，没有。
Maddie: 她觉得我的名字很好听。
Maddie: 这就是她选择它的原因。
Maddie: 因为她觉得很漂亮
Maddie: 她没有多想
Maddie: 除此之外，我想就没有了。
Maddie: 她觉得这听起来不错。
Jeanette: 所以，在你的朋友中、
Jeanette: 你有很多朋友吗？
Jeanette: 也有缩短的名称？
Jeanette: 这种情况很常见吗？
Maddie: 是的，这很常见。
Maddie: 我认识几个米莉
Maddie: 从米莉森特和阿米莉亚那里下来。
Maddie: Liv、
Maddie: 奥利维亚的莉薇
Jeanette: 在德国、
Jeanette: 事实并非如此。
Jeanette: 因此，大多数人会
Jeanette: 只有一个名字
Jeanette: 他们可能有一个绰号、
Jeanette: 但通常不会缩短。
Jeanette: 因此，我认为这是一个非常
Jeanette: 英国的东西，或者说非常英国的东西。
Jeanette: 英语问题、
Jeanette: 我想在美国也是如此、
Jeanette: 对不对？
Jeanette: 鲍勃
Jeanette: 为了罗伯特等等。
Jeanette: 你可能会在那里找到一些名字。
GiGi: 是的，有时他们也会使用
GiGi: 一个角色。
GiGi: 有时我在写作时
GiGi: 的电子邮件、
GiGi: 我只是在写
GiGi: 因为我懒。
GiGi: 我只是把 G 放在首字母上。
GiGi: 是的，就是这样。
Jeanette: 哦，不过是拉丁文、
Jeanette: 拉丁字母 G、
Jeanette: 因为你不会、
Jeanette: 用中文写就不会。
Jeanette: 是的，我不会那么做。
Jeanette: 你会喜欢
Jeanette: 一个字符是
Jeanette: 你名字的前半部分。
Jeanette: 所以是的。
Jeanette: 是的，我有时会把 J
Jeanette: 只是在我偷懒的时候。
Jeanette: 是啊
GiGi: 是啊，让我想起
GiGi: 绯闻女孩
GiGi: 那是 B 和 X 吗？
GiGi: XOXO.
GiGi: 是的，非常酷。
Jeanette: 因此，我们有一个非常大的区别
Jeanette: 中国的情况。
GiGi: 是的，没错。
Maddie: 大错特错。
Jeanette: 中国学生
Jeanette: 来英国学习的人
Jeanette: 或任何其他国家
Jeanette: 在西方确实如此、
Jeanette: 有些人比其他人更加如此、
Jeanette: 您对他们有何建议
Jeanette: 当他们出现在这里
Jeanette: 他们感到困惑？
GiGi: 好的
Maddie: 我认为最主要的是
Maddie: 我和很多人说过
Maddie: 国际学生、
Maddie: 他们中的很多人并不都来自中国、
Maddie: 但其中许多来自
Maddie: 亚洲国家。
Maddie: 我认为
Maddie: 他们一直在努力解决的问题是
Maddie: 幽默方面、
Maddie: 我认为是
Maddie: 有意思
Maddie: 我认为人们
Maddie: 纠缠不休
Maddie: 是幽默的干涩。
Maddie: 在英国
Maddie: 我不知道你是否发现
Maddie: 类似的东西、
Maddie: 但语气
Maddie: 和英式幽默的语调
Maddie: 很平淡。
Maddie: 而人们不能、
Maddie: 不知所云
Maddie: 讽刺或非评论。
Maddie: 或者是想开玩笑、
Maddie: 但会让人觉得
Maddie: 公然无礼
Maddie: 如果笑话不被人理解。
Maddie: 因此，我有几次
Maddie: 与人交谈
Maddie: 难以
Maddie: 以理解其中的讽刺意味。
GiGi: 是的，我们不明白
GiGi: 讽刺。
GiGi: 所以，但是
GiGi: 因为我是讲师
GiGi: 在英国机构工作。
GiGi: 因此，这意味着
GiGi: 我需要写
GiGi: 学生反馈。
GiGi: 是啊
GiGi: 所以，因为我需要
GiGi: 撰写学生反馈意见
GiGi: 有时我需要像
GiGi: 不忮不求
GiGi: 并需要像
GiGi: 现在语气温和了。
GiGi: 因此，有些人喜欢
GiGi: 有一个非常有名的
GiGi: 他们有一些文章
GiGi: 中国学生
GiGi: 来这里学习。
GiGi: 然后他们说
GiGi: 他们有黑人行话
GiGi: 的英语讲师。
Maddie: 有，对吗？
GiGi: 黑人行话。
GiGi: 黑话
GiGi: 我不知道如何
GiGi: 翻译成英语。
Jeanette: 黑话还是？
GiGi: 黑话
GiGi: 也许只是黑话。
GiGi: 意味着隐藏的含义
GiGi: 英语讲师
GiGi: 说的就是你的任务。
Maddie: 是啊
GiGi: 所以，基本上意味着
GiGi: 如果其中一位英语讲师
GiGi: 说你的作品很有趣、
GiGi: 这意味着你的工作
GiGi: 是非常可怕的。
GiGi: 所以，是的。
GiGi: 是啊
GiGi: 就像这样
GiGi: 这是一个，我不知道。
GiGi: 对我们来说，这其实就像，是的。
GiGi: 教学时
GiGi: 之类的话、
GiGi: 我已经开始
GiGi: 从开始喜欢
GiGi: 开始采用同样的方法
GiGi: 也来谈谈他们的工作。
GiGi: 所以，是的。
GiGi: 这是，我不知道。
Jeanette: 我是说，你的工作很有趣。
Jeanette: 这可能意味着你的工作都很出色、
Jeanette: 但也可以指
Jeanette: 您可能需要改进这一点
Jeanette: 一点点，对不对？
Maddie: 有意思
Maddie: 好吧
Maddie: 我知道你想做什么了。
Maddie: 你只是没有做到
Maddie: 非常成功。
Maddie: 我就是这么收集的。
Maddie: 我想我去年做过一个模块
Maddie: 与我们的一位讲师一起
Maddie: 马克，进行文化交流。
Maddie: 其中一件事
Maddie: 您谈到的区别是
Maddie: 在中国和英国文化中。
Maddie: 当你提到这一点时
Maddie: 那种隐藏的意义、
Maddie: 这让我想起
Maddie: 的礼貌思想、
Maddie: 这就是英国、
Maddie: 越不直接、
Maddie: 就会让人觉得你越有礼貌。
Maddie: 如果我想告诉别人什么
Maddie: 如果我想批评某人、
Maddie: 我不会说、
Maddie: 我认为这是垃圾、
Maddie: 你需要改变它。
Maddie: 我会说
Maddie: 哦，真不错。
Maddie: 您是否想过
Maddie: 也许可以换一种方式？
Maddie: 这样如何？
Maddie: 你想过这个问题吗？
Maddie: 只是因为我觉得也许
Maddie: 这样会更好。
Maddie: 我越不间接、
Maddie: 就越显得有礼貌。
Maddie: 所以，如果有人对我说：
Maddie: 太垃圾了
Maddie: 我认为这是最无礼的人
Maddie: 我一生中遇到过的人。
Maddie: 即使他们在做
Maddie: 来帮助我、
Maddie: 帮助我改进论文
Maddie: 我刚才写道
Maddie: 我明白这个道理、
Maddie: 还有
Maddie: 但我的大脑是固有的
Maddie: 将其视为
Maddie: 哦，我的天哪、
Maddie: 我好尴尬、
Maddie: 太无礼了
Maddie: 我不知道现在该怎么办。
Jeanette: 我很纠结
Jeanette: 作为德国人在英国、
Jeanette: 因为这种方法非常间接。
Maddie: 我有时会注意到
Maddie: 你说话的方式
Maddie: 我注意到
Maddie: 米娜会说芬兰语。
Maddie: 她很直接。
Maddie: 甚至在电子邮件交流中也是如此。
Maddie: 我是
Maddie: 哎、
Maddie: 希望一切顺利
Maddie: 我只是来看看这个、这个、这个。
Maddie: 米娜就像个天才
Maddie: 这次
Maddie: 这个地方、
Maddie: 我的天啊
Maddie: 好吧。
Maddie: 我必须提醒自己
Maddie: 她并不粗鲁、
Maddie: 她没有咄咄逼人、
Maddie: 她只是直截了当。
Maddie: 没关系。
Jeanette: 这也是一种文化贸易。
Maddie: 大错特错。
Jeanette: 是啊
Jeanette: 我认为许多中国学生
Jeanette: 来这里学习
Jeanette: 可能会注意到这一点。
Jeanette: 可能还要多一点、
Jeanette: 更接近中国文化、
Jeanette: 略为间接的方法
Jeanette: 到的东西，对不对？
GiGi: 我认为
GiGi: 中国学生、
GiGi: 当他们完成学业时
GiGi: 并尝试完成
GiGi: 这里的研究、
GiGi: 我认为，实际上期待
GiGi: 一些非常直接的建议
GiGi: 如何改进他们的工作。
GiGi: 是的。
GiGi: 所以，是的。
GiGi: 但与此同时
GiGi: 你会考虑吗？
GiGi: 如果你是我的学生
GiGi: 你更喜欢我礼貌一点吗？
GiGi: 或更具暗示性
GiGi: 关于非常直接
GiGi: 建议？
Maddie: 我认为这要看情况、
Maddie: 这在很大程度上取决于个人。
Maddie: 我认为有些人在挣扎
Maddie: 看破红尘、
Maddie: 人们所认为的批评。
Maddie: 我认为这可能会令人沮丧
Maddie: 当你不习惯
Maddie: 人们对你直言不讳、
Maddie: 尤其是在工作方面、
Maddie: 特别是
Maddie: 你想改进的地方。
Maddie: 但说实话
Maddie: 我会走的路线
Maddie: 是公开的礼貌、
Maddie: 哦，你可能试过这样做吗？
Maddie: 我认为人们对它的反应更好。
GiGi: 嗯
Jeanette: 是啊
Jeanette: 所以，这是一个值得学习的地方。
GiGi: 是啊
Maddie: 那么，你问的是
Maddie: 如果我有任何建议。
Maddie: 是啊
Maddie: 我的建议是
Maddie: 是试探性的、
Maddie: 用词要谨慎、
Maddie: 扔进这么多不必要的东西、
Maddie: 或者可以
Maddie: 希望和应该。
Maddie: 这是我能提供的建议。
Maddie: 所以，当你问别人
Maddie: 什么的
Maddie: 只是说可以、
Maddie: 我能有吗？
Maddie: 打扰一下
Maddie: 你能
Maddie: 给我带路去卫生间？
GiGi: 是啊
Jeanette: 好的
Maddie: 你知道卫生间在哪里吗？
Maddie: 我不这么认为、
Maddie: 真的很抱歉打扰您。
Maddie: 你知道卫生间在哪里吗？
Maddie: 而不是
Maddie: 它问的是完全相同的问题
Maddie: 我认识到这是一回事、
Maddie: 但表达方式却大相径庭。
Maddie: 你好，洗手间在哪里？
Jeanette: 我记得
Jeanette: 当我第一次搬到英国时、
Jeanette: 我是博士后
Jeanette: 曼彻斯特大学。
Jeanette: 这是很久以前的事了。
Jeanette: 我去了食堂
Jeanette: 与我的一位同事
Jeanette: 我说
Jeanette: 哦，我想要那个法棍。
Jeanette: 而我的同事却摔倒了。
Jeanette: 我告诉自己
Jeanette: 我是多么无礼
Maddie: 如果我在场
Maddie: 我会想
Maddie: 她的事我很遗憾
Maddie: 能把法棍给她吗？
Maddie: 如果你有时间的话。
GiGi: 是啊
GiGi: 是的，我想是的、
GiGi: 是的，我明白。
GiGi: 现在，因为我在这里工作
GiGi: 一年了。
GiGi: 有时，当我收到电子邮件时
GiGi: 来自中国学生、
GiGi: 当他们想问我
GiGi: 索取一些介绍信、
GiGi: 有时我会看到
GiGi: 部分学生
GiGi: 其实我也写过类似的东西。
GiGi: 我的天啊
GiGi: 我开始有这种感觉、
GiGi: 是啊，我的中国学生
GiGi: 有点失礼
GiGi: 当我们查看电子邮件时。
Maddie: 这很有趣、
Maddie: 因为连我都记得
Maddie: 早在 GCSE 和 A-level 考试时就有了、
Maddie: 我在与人交谈
Maddie: 他们正在学习其他语言。
Maddie: 他们试图用
Maddie: 这种英国式的礼貌
Maddie: 成套短语
Maddie: 就是没有用。
Maddie: 我想要那个法棍 “也是如此、
Maddie: 我想应该是在我们学法语的时候、
Maddie: 我认为 “想要 “就是 “我愿意”、
Maddie: 说 “我愿意 “和 “法棍
Maddie: 不管是什么。
Maddie: 我记得有这样一段对话
Maddie: 法国老师就像
Maddie: 哦，这似乎太不礼貌了。
Maddie: 我想要那个法棍
Maddie: 这还是比较礼貌的
Maddie: 而不是德语。
Maddie: 我想西班牙语也是一样的。
Maddie: 我想我可能错了。
Maddie: 是不是像 “yo quiero”
Maddie: 还是 “我要”？
Jeanette: 是的，你可以以礼貌的形式使用它
Jeanette: 和不太礼貌的形式。
Maddie: 我记得我曾与
Maddie: 与人们一起尝试
Maddie: 插入英语思维
Maddie: 译成这些其他语言。
Maddie: 只是没有转化
Maddie: 因为说 “我想要那个”
Maddie: 不被视为不礼貌。
Maddie: 但在我心中
Maddie: 我想说
Maddie: 对不起
Maddie: 我能拥有它吗？
Maddie: 我有这个可以吗？
Maddie: 而且这也没有必要。
GiGi: 您是否考虑
GiGi: 这种语言差异
GiGi: 造成这种误读
GiGi: 的粗鲁、
GiGi: 不礼貌？
GiGi: 它是否会成为一个重要因素
GiGi: 造成困难
GiGi: 认识新朋友
GiGi: 来自国际背景？
Maddie: 我想说是的。
Maddie: 我想，礼貌就没那么重要了、
Maddie: 更符合我刚才所说的
Maddie: 关于讽刺和幽默
Maddie: 我想我认识很多人
Maddie: 他们在英国通过幽默结缘、
Maddie: 尤其是当它折断时
Maddie: 与人共处、
Maddie: 那就这样吧。
Maddie: 人们就是这样相处的、
Maddie: 是什么样的人
Maddie: 已连接
Maddie: 真的很相似。
Maddie: 我认为这很难创作。
Maddie: 别误会我的意思。
Maddie: 您可以交谈
Maddie: 你可以友好
Maddie: 并结交
Maddie: 无论你喜欢谁。
Maddie: 您不需要
Maddie: 来自同一国际
Maddie: 背景。
Maddie: 但我认为这样更容易
Maddie: 形成即时联系。
Maddie: 当这些事情
Maddie: 相互理解。
Maddie: 因为我不认为
Maddie: 我意识到
Maddie: 不可或缺
Maddie: 这些都是与生具来的
Maddie: 英国人是
Maddie: 当我谈到幽默
Maddie: 直到我说
Maddie: 国际学生。
Maddie: 我当时想
Maddie: 哦，我要重新评估一下
Maddie: 我说话的方式
Maddie: 因为我会遇到
Maddie: 公然无礼和刻薄。
GiGi: 因此，如果其中一名学生
GiGi: 来这里
GiGi: 学习一年
GiGi: 的硕士课程、
GiGi: 然后他们想
GiGi: 认识一些英国朋友
GiGi: 将是
GiGi: 最好的办法是什么？
GiGi: 您有什么建议吗？
GiGi: 如果他们愿意
GiGi: 认识一些新朋友
GiGi: 当他们在这里学习时？
GiGi: 有什么好建议吗？
Maddie: 我有一个室友
Maddie: 第一年
Maddie: 她正在攻读硕士学位。
Maddie: 她来自中国。
Maddie: 我不知道在哪里。
Maddie: 她是如此可爱。
Maddie: 她让我坐下。
Maddie: 她说、
Maddie: 我正在努力结交新朋友。
Maddie: 我正在努力提高我的英语水平。
Maddie: 如果我们能
Maddie: 有更多的对话。
Maddie: 如果我们能
Maddie: 多出去逛逛
Maddie: 她叫 YC。
Maddie: 我不能告诉你
Maddie: 她的中文名字是什么。
Maddie: 但真的很可爱。
Maddie: 她只是
Maddie: 非常坦诚。
Maddie: 我认为人们
Maddie: 尊重开放。
Maddie: 我认为这是有道理的
Maddie: 如果你对人们说
Maddie: 如果你刚才解释了
Maddie: 比如，嘿，我想
Maddie: 结交新朋友
Maddie: 或者，嘿，我正试着
Maddie: 提高我的英语水平。
Maddie: 但除此之外，我想…
Maddie: 我不认为
Maddie: 交朋友与众不同。
Maddie: 我认为要对人民说
Maddie: 你的课程。
Maddie: 加入社团
Maddie: 你感兴趣的
Maddie: 因为共同利益
Maddie: 让人们走到一起。
Maddie: 你们对同一个话题感兴趣。
Maddie: 这就是为什么你们都
Maddie: 研究它。
Maddie: 你们生活在同一个地方。
Maddie: 对话。
Maddie: 你们有相同的爱好
Maddie: 你们在同一个社会里。
Maddie: 这是有道理的。
Jeanette: 我认为爱好
Jeanette: 真的很重要，对吗？
Jeanette: 做你喜欢的事
Jeanette: 这样才能找到人。
Jeanette: 我知道
Jeanette: 你在打羽毛球，对吗？
Maddie: 是的。
Jeanette: 你有很多…
Jeanette: 相当国际化的团队。
Maddie: 是的，这是一支相当国际化的团队。
Maddie: 我想…
Maddie: 这…
Maddie: 他们都说
Maddie: 流利的英语。
Maddie: 但有几个
Maddie: 有点
Maddie: 更蹩脚的英语
Maddie: 说到我们的谈话
Maddie: 我们在交谈
Maddie: 我们一起玩游戏
Maddie: 很多、
Maddie: 因为这是一种爱好、
Maddie: 我们不必说话。
Maddie: 我们还可以做其他运动。
Maddie: 我们还有其他联系方法
Maddie: 超越语言。
Maddie: 所以，如果你不…
Maddie: 如果…
Maddie: 如果一想到要讲英语
Maddie: 乏味
Maddie: 辛苦
Maddie: 当你做了一整天、
Maddie: 每天
Maddie: 这是你的第二语言
Maddie: 而你却不断滑倒、
Maddie: 这让人士气低落、
Maddie: 让人精疲力竭
Maddie: 过一段时间
Maddie: 让你的大脑
Maddie: 持续开启、
Maddie: 那么我认识的人
Maddie: 加入舞蹈社团
Maddie: 并结交了朋友
Maddie: 因为他们在
Maddie: 社会团结在一起、
Maddie: 但他们不…
Maddie: 并不一定总是
Maddie: 围绕发言
Maddie: 和聊天、
Maddie: 没关系、
Maddie: 但这仍然是一种友谊。
Maddie: 它还在与人们建立联系。
Jeanette: 太棒了
Jeanette: 听起来真是个不错的建议。
Jeanette: 是啊
Jeanette: 我们已经讨论过
Jeanette: 千头万绪
Jeanette: 今天，不是吗？
Jeanette: 是的，我们有。
GiGi: 是啊，很不错。
Jeanette: 是啊，真的、
Jeanette: 真可爱
Jeanette: 有你在这里，麦迪。
Maddie: 非常感谢
Maddie: 谢谢你邀请我
Jeanette: 是的，非常感谢
Jeanette: 感谢您的到来和加入
Jeanette: 我们的播客
Maddie: 这绝对是一种享受。
Jeanette: 好的，再见
GiGi: 再见

Jeanette: Welcome to our “Chicken to Duck Talk” podcast, I’m Jeanette Sakel.
GiGi: I’m Zheng Xingzhi, GiGi.
Jeanette: Okay, so today we have a guest named Maddie.
Jeanette: Hello, Maddie.
Maddie: Hello. Everybody, Hello. Thank you very much for having me with you guys today.
Jeanette: Okay, so Maddie’s a Brit, so we’ll be speaking English to record our podcast.
Jeanette: So Maddie, can you introduce yourselve briefly?
Maddie: Hello, my name is Maddie, I’ve just finished my second year at uni, I take English language and linguistics.
Maddie: I’m about to go into my third year, and since it’s summer, I’m interning with Jeanette this summer, so I’ve been helping you out with a couple of bits and bobs.
Jeanette: Brilliant, yeah, and it’s much appreciated.
Jeanette: OK, now we invited Maddie because we know that there is a topic that people sometimes struggle with when they come to Britain.
GiGi: Yes.
Jeanette: And I know Gigi, you struggled with this, haven’t you?
GiGi: Yes, so before I come to UK to become a lecturer, I was an university lecturer in China back in, for like 20 months.
GiGi: So most of the time I delivered the lectures using Chinese.
GiGi: However, after I come here, one of my biggest challenge is about separating the he, she and they.
GiGi: Because in Chinese, because when we’re writing he, she, they in Chinese, they are different.
GiGi: However, when we are speaking Chinese, they sound the same.
GiGi: So they’re just like TA, TA, TA, they’re just the same.
GiGi: So for me, especially that when I need to interact with my students, because they have so many background,
GiGi: so some of my students are using they as their pronouns.
GiGi: So for me, it’s not about using they anymore.
GiGi: It’s about when I’m speaking, I’m already confused of using he and she.
GiGi: So for me, it’s not about the they situation, it’s about the he/she situation.
GiGi: I’m already confusing with it.
Jeanette: Okay, so we’ve got pronouns, he/she, but then also they.
GiGi: Maddie, what are they?
Maddie: So they are pronouns used by normally non-binary people.
Maddie: And that means that there are certain people who don’t identify with the gender norms.
Maddie: So binary by definition means this too. So boys and girls, that’s the gender.
Maddie: Now what non-binary people believe and what a lot of other people surrounding the LGBTQ community believe
Maddie: is that gender shouldn’t be so restricted and so confined to just those two norms.
Maddie: So if you’re non-binary, what it is is that your gender exists outside of those norms.
Maddie: You don’t see yourself as a boy, you don’t see yourself as a girl, you’re something in between.
Maddie: It doesn’t have to be split in the middle. It can be identifying as more masculine, as more feminine,
Maddie: but it means that you don’t see yourself as a girl, you don’t want to use she/her pronouns,
Maddie: because that’s how we identify girls, and you don’t want to use he/him, because that’s how we identify boys.
Maddie: Something in the middle, It’s they them.
Jeanette: And this is quite common in britian now?
Maddie: It’s increasingly more enpowering, I think,
Maddie: There’re a lot of different arguments is to why, but I think
Maddie: tend to be the most positive arguments is that,
Maddie: people are being more comfortable of being who they are, as time progresses, and with that,
Maddie: People want to display that, people want to live as authentic as themselves.
Jeanette: Yeah, so when did you first come across this, Gigi?
GiGi: One of my students… He…, Uh, I already making…
GiGi: Yeah, they are using, because my mind keep telling me that “they is using”,
GiGi: so yeah, for me, they are using the, but I’m actually talking about one single person, but I’m using they are.
GiGi: They are using the pronouns of they. So when that’s, it’s very lucky for me that when I’m interacting with them,
GiGi: is that I just talking to you, it’s not talking about them.
GiGi: So for me, even for me, even for me, in my mindset current at the moment is that when I need to talk about them,
GiGi: is that I’m thinking about他们,他们 is like a group of people.
GiGi: But my mind is actually thinking about one person only.
GiGi: So this is the challenging part, is that I’m talking about one individual,
GiGi: but in English term, while I’m learning English is actually talking about group of people.
GiGi: So this is a challenging part.
Jeanette: So Maddie, it is they are and not they is, right? Even when we’re talking about one person.
Maddie: Yeah, so obviously in English, you can use they for groups of people, it can be plural,
Jeanette: but it can also mean individuals, not just in the non-binary context, it is used in other contexts as well.
Maddie: For example, if I was to say, oh, I went to the shops and the cashier, they gave me my change.
Maddie: That’s still talking about one person. I’m still talking about that one cashier.
Maddie: And all it is is emitting their gender.
Maddie: I’m not saying that the cashier is non-binary, but the gender is irrelevant to the story. So why include it?
Maddie: So when would you use this? When would you say, oh, they gave me my cash?
Jeanette: It doesn’t matter what gender they are?
Maddie: I think it’s individual to each person.
Maddie: I don’t think people have a particular method as to when they do and don’t use it.
Maddie: I think it would make just as much sense and no one would think any differently if I was to say,
Maddie: and he gave me the change back or she gave me the change back or they gave me the change back.
Maddie: It doesn’t make a difference.
GiGi: But I think my grammar mistake here is that because I want to use the they are,
GiGi: but my mind is keep telling me that when you are talking about they,
GiGi: you actually doesn’t use the they is or using are inside your sentence.
GiGi: For me is that if I want to use they are,
GiGi: and then my mindset is actually keep telling me that I need to use they is.
GiGi: So I think this is the challenge for me.
GiGi: Yes, so I guess is that I might still need a little bit time to like, yeah, I understand now.
GiGi: So I’m just wondering, yeah.
Jeanette: So Maddie, do you know any non-binary people and how would they react to this?
Maddie: I think the non-binary people I know, I think they’re understanding.
Maddie: I think since you have to do so much in an exploration and self-discovery,
Maddie: I think it must make you some form of understanding and empathetic person.
Maddie: And so I don’t think anyone’s going to be deeply upset.
Maddie: I think if you were to make any mistakes concerning gender,
Maddie: I think it’s very understandable because and I think it’s not malicious.
Maddie: You’re not trying to be nasty.
Maddie: You’re not trying to go out your way to hurt anybody’s feelings.
Maddie: It’s just a mistake and that’s okay.
Maddie: And so the non-binary people I know wouldn’t mind.
Maddie: You’re their teacher.
Maddie: You’re there to teach them.
Maddie: And it’s lovely that you want to be respectful.
Maddie: It really is.
Maddie: But as long as you try your best,
Maddie: I don’t think anybody’s going to have some massive complaints.
Maddie: I really don’t.
Maddie: I think I can understand how some people could call it could cause offence to people
Maddie: in terms of the he/she thing.
Maddie: But less so with the non-binary thing because I think that even in English now,
Maddie: I think that’s even something that English people slip up on.
Maddie: So I don’t think you need to be worried about hurting anybody’s feelings.
GiGi: I think the major consideration here is about the kindness
GiGi: and how they treat the others equally rather than about making the grammar mistake, I guess.
Jeanette: But then one of the other mistakes, Gigi,
Jeanette: that you said you often make is the he/she distinction.
Jeanette: So when you talk about people,
Jeanette: in Chinese it’s obviously “TA” all the way through.
Jeanette: And when you speak about people here,
Jeanette: you might say she or he and get the gender wrong.
GiGi: Yes, exactly.
GiGi: So yeah, we just simply doesn’t separate the he, she and they.
GiGi: So we are just using the same word.
Jeanette: So until about a hundred years ago,
Jeanette: there was no distinction in the written language either.
Jeanette: Okay. Now obviously there is a distinction in the written language
Jeanette: where you have he/she and it written differently,
Jeanette: but all pronounced TA.
Jeanette: But in English, obviously it’s not just in the written language,
Jeanette: but it’s also in the spoken language
Jeanette: where we have to make that distinction.
Jeanette: And then with the added complication of them,
Jeanette: we’re aware of other languages that do this, right?
Jeanette: Maddie, have you got any experiences?
Maddie: Yeah, I’m aware of, of course, a friend and a lecturer who’s Finnish
Maddie: and they don’t make the distinction.
Jeanette: Really?
Maddie: Yeah, in Finnish they don’t make the gender distinction when speaking.
Maddie: And so someone phrased it to me as,
Maddie: it’s interesting when she was trying,
Maddie: the lecturer is a woman, when she was trying to learn,
Maddie: not trying to learn English, when she was learning English,
Maddie: because as an English speaker,
Maddie: there’s always that nagging,
Maddie: there’s always that nagging thing in the back of your head
Maddie: that’s saying if someone’s using gender neutral pronouns,
Maddie: that’s going, yes, but what gender?
Maddie: But what gender?
Maddie: So, it’s a boy or a girl.
Maddie: And I don’t know why.
Maddie: I think maybe because we use the gendered pronouns,
Maddie: that it’s just, it feels like a piece of the story is missing.
Maddie: But to a Finnish speaker, there’s no distinction.
Maddie: It doesn’t make a difference.
Maddie: They can use gender neutral pronouns throughout the whole thing.
Maddie: But Finnish is an example of what I know.
Jeanette: Yeah, and Finnish, one could say, goes even further than Chinese,
Jeanette: because the Finnish pronoun is “Hen”,
Jeanette: and it’s written “Hen”,
Jeanette: whether it’s male or female.
Jeanette: So, it’s the same all the way through.
Jeanette: So, this distinction between male and female is not there
Jeanette: in some languages, and people get around it.
Jeanette: But then also make mistakes,
Jeanette: obviously, when they learn a language that is gendered.
Jeanette: So, this use of non-binary pronouns
Jeanette: is quite common amongst our students at university.
Jeanette: And also, I know from school, my daughter’s school,
Jeanette: there’s quite a few non-binary pupils.
Jeanette: But amongst my generation,
Jeanette: there really aren’t any that I’m aware of.
Jeanette: So, how come?
Maddie: I think, honestly,
Maddie: I think there’s going to be countless reasons.
Maddie: But the one that comes to mind for me is that
Maddie: people say when we speak about language,
Maddie: that language is arbitrary.
Maddie: We assign meaning to words.
Maddie: The words like microphone
Maddie: doesn’t actually have anything to do with the sounds
Maddie: that are coming out of my mouth.
Maddie: We completely assign the meaning to it.
Maddie: And I think as time’s progressed,
Maddie: I think it’s given people more time
Maddie: and more opportunities to think
Maddie: about the fact that maybe gender’s arbitrary, too.
Maddie: Maybe if the ideas and the implications
Maddie: associated with men and masculinity
Maddie: and females and femininity,
Maddie: you can start dissecting them a little bit more.
Maddie: There is absolutely, in my opinion,
Maddie: no reason that femininity
Maddie: should be associated with females,
Maddie: bar the word femme and femme.
Maddie: And I think that people who are non-binary
Maddie: can make the separation of,
Maddie: separate masculinity from men
Maddie: and separate femininity from females.
Maddie: And I think as soon as you realise
Maddie: that maybe those can be reassigned
Maddie: and that thought process can be reevaluated,
Maddie: I think it opens up to such a
Maddie: more interesting perspective on gender.
Maddie: And so the idea that
Maddie: if you grow up liking dresses
Maddie: and liking makeup and liking femininity,
Maddie: that’s okay if you’re a boy,
Maddie: because men don’t have to be associated
Maddie: with masculinity.
Maddie: They can also be associated with femininity.
Maddie: And it can meet somewhere in the middle.
Maddie: You might want to be associated with either.
Maddie: And I think as time progresses,
Maddie: it just allows people to pick all it apart
Maddie: a little bit more and reevaluate
Maddie: and analyse it a little bit more
Maddie: and kind of let it sit with themselves
Maddie: a little bit more.
Jeanette: So society has basically changed
Jeanette: over the last few decades.
GiGi: Depends.
GiGi: I would say depends.
Maddie: Go on.
GiGi: So when I was 10 years old,
GiGi: maybe like five or six years old,
GiGi: I cried a lot when I was a child.
GiGi: And then in order to stop me from crying,
GiGi: my grandpa put some very bitter stuff,
GiGi: pour the bitter powder on my fingers.
GiGi: So when I’m licking on it,
GiGi: or something like that,
GiGi: they will need to like,
GiGi: because it’s very bitter,
GiGi: or something like that.
GiGi: So they keep telling me to be masculine
GiGi: a little bit.
GiGi: Stop crying.
GiGi: Behave like a man.
GiGi: And then turns out I’m not.
GiGi: So what I’m trying to say is that,
GiGi: yeah, so when I come here,
GiGi: my first English name is actually Dick,
GiGi: D-I-C-K, Dick.
GiGi: But in English word,
GiGi: Dick is actually some very male name, right?
GiGi: So yeah.
Jeanette: I mean, originally it just meant Richard, right?
Maddie: Yeah, it’s a shortened version for Richard.
Jeanette: Yeah, these shortened forms are quite common in English,
Jeanette: aren’t they?
Maddie: Yeah.
GiGi: Dick is related to Richard?
Jeanette: Yeah.
Jeanette: Yes, it’s just Richard.
Jeanette: And in English,
Jeanette: at least most longer names would have a shorter form.
Jeanette: So your name is originally Madeleine.
Maddie: My name is Madeleine, yeah.
Jeanette: But it’s shortened to Maddie.
GiGi: But I thought the rich is the short word of Richard.
Maddie: It can be.
Jeanette: It has changed,
Jeanette: because obviously Dick is the short form of Richard.
Jeanette: But it has taken on a second meaning.
GiGi: Yes, yes.
Jeanette: And because of that second meaning,
Jeanette: people over a certain age may still use the name Dick,
Jeanette: because that’s what they used to.
Jeanette: But younger people may refrain from using that name,
Jeanette: just because of its added meaning, right, Maddie?
Maddie: No, yeah, I agree.
Maddie: I don’t know.
Maddie: I think Richard’s not a very popular name in my generation,
Maddie: as it stands anyway.
Maddie: I don’t know many Richards
Maddie: that aren’t people’s dads.
Maddie: But no, I’m aware of the same thing,
Maddie: is that they tend to shorten to rich,
Maddie: as opposed to Dick.
GiGi: So if the Chinese students want to study here
GiGi: and they want to create an English name,
GiGi: what kind of males’ name that they should avoid?
GiGi: Because sometimes it’s a little bit too many names
GiGi: that they should avoid.
GiGi: I remember that when I’m watching some documentary
GiGi: or maybe just like videos or something online,
GiGi: they’ve been talking about they have a lot of
GiGi: words to describe toilet.
GiGi: So even John, J-O-H-N, john,
GiGi: is also another way to call the toilet.
Maddie: Is that a John?
GiGi: A John, yes.
Maddie: Oh, like a Johnny?
Jeanette: Yeah, but it’s not used that often.
Maddie: No, it’s not used that often at all.
Jeanette: No, and I know lots of people call John,
Jeanette: and John is a very common name.
GiGi: Exactly.
GiGi: It’s like, yeah, because there’s so many names,
GiGi: they’re kind of like a forbidden.
GiGi: So what kind of name I should actually use?
GiGi: So this kind of like a very…
Maddie: I think that’s an interesting question.
Maddie: I don’t…
Maddie: Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anybody’s
Maddie: names that are like…
GiGi: Very offensive.
Maddie: Yeah, very offensive.
Maddie: I think…
Maddie: Are you asking about males’ names specifically?
GiGi: Yes.
Maddie: I think I agree with what I said earlier.
Maddie: I think with male names especially,
Maddie: a lot of them are shortened.
Maddie: It’ll be Timothy to Tim or Benjamin to Ben.
Maddie: And so a lot of people go by shorter names,
Maddie: which more often than not are quite common.
Jeanette: And I think for a Chinese person
Jeanette: looking for an English name,
Jeanette: I think those shortened forms are usually quite good.
Jeanette: Like Ben and Tim definitely.
Jeanette: John and Paul.
Jeanette: James, a big one.
Jeanette: Pete, James.
Jeanette: Yeah.
GiGi: Yeah.
Jeanette: I think they’re your traditional names,
Jeanette: very common names, and they’re usually okay.
Jeanette: So if you didn’t want to stand out,
Jeanette: you’d go for a name like that.
Jeanette: But Gigi, you chose Gigi.
Jeanette: Why is that?
GiGi: Yes, because my Chinese name is just Zheng Xingzhi.
GiGi: So I don’t have a lot of male friends,
GiGi: but I have a lot of besties,
GiGi: have a lot of friends who are girls.
GiGi: So just be friends with them.
GiGi: So yeah, most of the time,
GiGi: they just call me Gigi.
GiGi: So it’s like, yeah,
GiGi: I’m like the bestie of the girls.
GiGi: So that’s why they started.
GiGi: Because when I also…
GiGi: One of the reason that when I was 12 years old,
GiGi: some of my classmates would consider me a little bit feminine.
GiGi: So they just like…
GiGi: because there is a very famous singer in China,
GiGi: Liang Yongqi.
GiGi: So she is also Gigi Leung.
GiGi: Gigi Leung.
Jeanette: I know her, yeah.
Jeanette: I do like her songs.
GiGi: Yeah, I also like her songs as well.
GiGi: But because my vocal tone is not qualified to sing her song.
GiGi: Anyway, so yeah.
GiGi: So that’s why some of the guys,
GiGi: if they consider me as being a little bit feminine,
GiGi: they just also using Gigi as a name to like…
GiGi: kind of like degrading me.
GiGi: To be mean.
Jeanette: You’re owning it.
Jeanette: You’re doing a good job.
GiGi: Yeah, so basically I’m just like from dick to Gigi.
GiGi: It’s like a big…
Maddie: It’s a massive shift.
GiGi: But it’s also saying that for me is that
GiGi: it doesn’t matter.
GiGi: No matter if I’m a dick or I’m a Gigi.
GiGi: I’m just me.
Jeanette: Yeah.
GiGi: And then it’s also just an easy way for you to like…
GiGi: because if you actually try to say my Chinese name is
GiGi: confusing for you to actually say it.
GiGi: So rather than like using my actual Chinese name,
GiGi: just call me whatever you want.
Jeanette: Isn’t that a bit ironic that you’re giving me an alternative
Maddie: and you’re saying call me whatever you’d like.
Maddie: And you’re here putting in the effort to try and
Maddie: call people exactly what they want to be called.
Maddie: And just the irony in what you just asked me.
Jeanette: But it’s interesting, isn’t it?
Jeanette: Because you’re obviously a linguistics student
Jeanette: and I’m a linguist who speaks Chinese.
Jeanette: And for me,
Jeanette: some of the Chinese names are quite difficult even now.
Jeanette: And for you as a linguistics student,
Jeanette: I expect it to be the same, right?
Jeanette: If you’re seeing a name like Gigi’s Chinese name,
Jeanette: you might think how do I pronounce that?
Maddie: I’ve not got a clue.
Maddie: If you put your name in front of me,
Maddie: not got a scooby-doo.
Maddie: I think I’d butcher it a million ways to one.
Jeanette: And that’s probably why many Chinese people
Jeanette: would find an English name.
Jeanette: And the other way around,
Jeanette: I mean, my name in Chinese is Ke-Zhen.
Jeanette: Which again, I based on my own name.
Jeanette: There’s two last names.
Jeanette: My last name is “Sakel”.
Jeanette: And you could say “SA” the first bit
Jeanette: and “SA” the second bit.
Jeanette: And there’s two last names that are like that.
Jeanette: But I shortened it to “SA”.
Jeanette: And then Jeanette is usually “ZHEN-NI-TE”.
Jeanette: But I just shortened it to “ZHEN”,
Jeanette: which would be Jane, I guess.
Jeanette: I think it works.
Jeanette: I quite, Gigi doesn’t like it.
Jeanette: I don’t like it.
GiGi: Because if he’s using Sakel…
Jeanette: the Sa,
GiGi: because Sa is also related to one of the “SHA”.
GiGi: “SHA” means silly.
GiGi: So basically she mean that
GiGi: if she speak it like using the same,
GiGi: using the incorrect tones
GiGi: or something like that,
GiGi: it mean that he is professor silly.
GiGi: Which is a little bit weird.
Jeanette: I don’t mind.
Jeanette: But it’s not that bad.
Jeanette: I think that makes me like the name even more.
GiGi: I don’t like it.
GiGi: But it’s like, maybe not.
GiGi: I don’t know.
GiGi: But it’s very interesting.
Jeanette: Yeah.
Jeanette: But I don’t use the “SA” bit anymore.
Jeanette: I just use 柯珍.
Jeanette: And I quite like that name.
Jeanette: Good news.
Jeanette: But I know you told me
Jeanette: it sounds a bit like an old “Aunt”.
Jeanette: And I could potentially find a slightly more.
GiGi: Yeah.
GiGi: Maybe I’m a little bit judgmental
GiGi: about the name of the “珍”.
GiGi: Because when I saw the name ”珍“,
GiGi: it’s that,
GiGi: just like you said that
GiGi: not a lot of new generation
GiGi: are using the name Richard.
GiGi: So for me,
GiGi: the “珍” is a very traditional way
GiGi: to the females are using as their names.
GiGi: So “Jane”.
GiGi: So it also remind me of something like
GiGi: a “Cherish” or something like that,
GiGi: using the English name.
GiGi: So if you call yourself
GiGi: “Cherish” in English,
GiGi: it’s a little bit.
GiGi: I don’t know.
GiGi: A little bit too traditional, you know?
Jeanette: I guess I’m not very traditional.
Jeanette: But I quite like the name.
Jeanette: I still quite like the name.
GiGi: I just know that
GiGi: what I know about Jeanette
GiGi: is a very cool person.
GiGi: That using your name as “Cherish”
GiGi: is actually my interpretation of Jeanette.
GiGi: So that’s why I’d be thinking
GiGi: yeah,
GiGi: Jeanette worth deserve a better cooler name
GiGi: rather than using the name Cherish.
Jeanette: So what about Madeline?
Jeanette: So you prefer to use Maddie.
Maddie: I think it’s just what I’ve always been called
Maddie: growing up.
Maddie: I think Madeline seems quite formal
Maddie: in formal context.
Maddie: I sign emails off sometimes with Madeline.
Maddie: It’s like on birth certificate.
Maddie: It’s on official documents.
Maddie: And so it feels for official use only.
Maddie: And so Maddie is more conversational.
Maddie: Some people go even further
Maddie: and call me Mads in the short term.
Jeanette: And that has another connotation.
Jeanette: Mad is maddening.
GiGi: Exactly.
Jeanette: That in a way is also quite cool.
Maddie: I think it goes off
Maddie: to so many different things.
Maddie: Some people, some of my friends
Maddie: who are really, really silly
Maddie: take Mads and turn it into Mad Dog.
Maddie: I don’t know where that one’s come from.
Maddie: That’s picking up popularity.
Maddie: But yeah, because even my name,
Maddie: even Madeline as it is, is spelt
Maddie: quite differently to the way it normally is.
Maddie: I think it’s originally French name.
GiGi: Oh.
Maddie: Yeah.
Maddie: And I think it had the extra,
Maddie: it has an extra e in it,
Maddie: but mine doesn’t.
Maddie: So it’s just spelt M-A-D-E-L-I-N-E,
Maddie: made line, as opposed to Madeline.
Maddie: And fun fact,
Maddie: a long, long time ago,
Maddie: I had a look at some of the origins
Maddie: of where Madeline comes from.
Maddie: And from Mary of Magdalen in the Bible.
Jeanette: Oh, really?
Maddie: Yeah.So it actually stems from
Maddie: and I quote Jesus’s whore.
Maddie: And to make rub salt in the wounds,
Maddie: all the males in my family,
Maddie: all their names meant like great warrior,
Maddie: the god of war,
Maddie: like great general.
Maddie: And that was my one.
GiGi: This sounds like a little bit too
GiGi: testosterone.
Maddie: Yeah.
Jeanette: That’s what I mean.
Jeanette: I would own that though.
Jeanette: So your mom,
Jeanette: does she ever call you Madeline?
Maddie: Only when I’ve been,
Maddie: only when I’ve been a…
GiGi: Furious.
Maddie: Yeah, only when she’s furious.
Maddie: She whips out the full name.
Maddie: It’s Madeline.
Maddie: Again,
Maddie: only when she is shouting my name
Maddie: for whatever reason it might be.
Maddie: But other than that, no.
Maddie: She thinks my name is pretty.
Maddie: That’s why she chose it.
Maddie: Cause she thinks it’s pretty.
Maddie: She didn’t give it much thought
Maddie: beyond that, I don’t think.
Maddie: She thinks it just sounds nice.
Jeanette: So amongst your friends,
Jeanette: have you got many friends
Jeanette: that have shortened names as well?
Jeanette: Is that very common?
Maddie: Yeah, it’s very common.
Maddie: I know a couple of Millies
Maddie: down from Millicent and Amelia.
Maddie: Liv,
Maddie: Livvy from Olivia.
Jeanette: In Germany,
Jeanette: this is not the case at all.
Jeanette: So most people would have
Jeanette: just one name.
Jeanette: They might have a nickname,
Jeanette: but it’s not usually shortened.
Jeanette: So I think this is a very
Jeanette: British thing or very English thing.
Jeanette: English language thing,
Jeanette: which is I guess in the US as well,
Jeanette: right?
Jeanette: Bob,
Jeanette: For Robert and so on.
Jeanette: You may have some names there.
GiGi: Yeah, sometimes they also use
GiGi: one character as well.
GiGi: Sometimes when I’m writing
GiGi: the email,
GiGi: I’m just writing
GiGi: because I’m being lazy.
GiGi: I’m just putting G on the initial.
GiGi: So yeah, that’s all.
Jeanette: Oh, but in Latin script,
Jeanette: Latin script G,
Jeanette: because you wouldn’t,
Jeanette: in Chinese script you wouldn’t.
Jeanette: Yeah, I wouldn’t do that.
Jeanette: You would just like,
Jeanette: one character would be
Jeanette: the first part of your name.
Jeanette: So yeah.
Jeanette: Yeah, I sometimes put J
Jeanette: just when I’m lazy.
Jeanette: Yeah.
GiGi: Yeah, just remind me of
GiGi: Gossip Girl.
GiGi: Is that the B and X?
GiGi: XOXO.
GiGi: Yeah, very cool.
Jeanette: So we have a very big difference
Jeanette: to how things are in China.
GiGi: Yes, exactly.
Maddie: Massively so.
Jeanette: And for a student from China
Jeanette: who comes to Britain to study
Jeanette: or to any other country
Jeanette: in the West really,
Jeanette: some more so than others,
Jeanette: what advice would you give them
Jeanette: when they turn up here
Jeanette: and they’re confused?
GiGi: Okay, okay, okay.
Maddie: I think the main thing
Maddie: I’ve spoken to quite a few
Maddie: international students,
Maddie: a lot of them not all from China,
Maddie: but a lot of them from
Maddie: Asian countries.
Maddie: And I think one of the things
Maddie: they’ve struggled with is
Maddie: the humor aspect of it,
Maddie: I think is something
Maddie: that’s interesting
Maddie: that I think people
Maddie: keep struggling with
Maddie: is the dryness of the humor.
Maddie: In Britain.
Maddie: I don’t know if you found
Maddie: anything similar,
Maddie: but with the tone
Maddie: and intonation of British humor
Maddie: falls quite flat.
Maddie: And people can’t,
Maddie: maybe can’t quite decipher
Maddie: the sarcasm or the off-comment.
Maddie: Or it’s intended as a joke,
Maddie: but it can come across
Maddie: as just blatantly rude
Maddie: if the joke’s not being perceived.
Maddie: And so I’ve had a few
Maddie: conversations with people
Maddie: who have found it difficult
Maddie: to understand the sarcasm.
GiGi: Yes, we don’t understand
GiGi: the sarcasm.
GiGi: So, but however,
GiGi: because I’m a lecturer
GiGi: working in a UK institution.
GiGi: So, which means that
GiGi: I need to write
GiGi: student feedback.
GiGi: Yeah.
GiGi: So, because I need to
GiGi: write the student feedback
GiGi: sometimes that I need to be like
GiGi: not being very aggressive
GiGi: and need to be like
GiGi: milder tone now.
GiGi: So, there are some like,
GiGi: there’s some very famous one
GiGi: that they have some article
GiGi: the Chinese student
GiGi: come here to study.
GiGi: And then they say
GiGi: they have a black lingo
GiGi: of the English lecturers.
Maddie: There was, right?
GiGi: Black lingo.
GiGi: bandits’ secret jargon
GiGi: I don’t know how to
GiGi: translate it into English.
Jeanette: Black language or?
GiGi: Black language.
GiGi: Maybe just black language.
GiGi: Means that the hidden meanings
GiGi: of the English lecturer
GiGi: are talking about your assignment.
Maddie: Yeah.
GiGi: So, basically mean that
GiGi: if one of the English lecturers
GiGi: say that your work is interesting,
GiGi: it means that your work
GiGi: is very horrible.
GiGi: So, yeah.
GiGi: Yeah.
GiGi: It’s just like something like this.
GiGi: It’s a, I don’t know.
GiGi: For us, it’s actually like, yeah.
GiGi: When I’m teaching
GiGi: or something like that,
GiGi: I started to already
GiGi: from started to like
GiGi: started to use the same approach
GiGi: to talk about their work as well.
GiGi: So, yeah.
GiGi: It’s, I don’t know.
Jeanette: I mean, your work is interesting.
Jeanette: It can mean both your work is great,
Jeanette: but it can also mean,
Jeanette: you may want to improve this
Jeanette: a little bit, right?
Maddie: Interesting.
Maddie: Like, okay,
Maddie: I see what you’ve tried to do.
Maddie: You’ve just not done it
Maddie: very successfully.
Maddie: It’s how I’d gather that.
Maddie: I think I did a module last year
Maddie: with one of our lecturers,
Maddie: Mark, into culture communication.
Maddie: And one of the things
Maddie: you spoke about was the difference
Maddie: in Chinese and UK culture.
Maddie: And when you mentioned about that,
Maddie: the kind of hidden meaning,
Maddie: it kind of reminded me
Maddie: of the politeness idea,
Maddie: which is that in the UK,
Maddie: the less direct you are with something,
Maddie: the more polite you’re perceived.
Maddie: If I wanted to tell somebody something,
Maddie: if I wanted to criticize somebody,
Maddie: I wouldn’t say,
Maddie: I think it’s rubbish,
Maddie: you need to change it.
Maddie: I’d say,
Maddie: oh, that’s really good.
Maddie: Have you thought about
Maddie: maybe doing it another way?
Maddie: What about this way?
Maddie: Have you maybe thought about this?
Maddie: Just because I think maybe perhaps
Maddie: it could be better this way.
Maddie: The less indirect I am,
Maddie: the more polite it’s perceived.
Maddie: So if someone was to say to me,
Maddie: that’s rubbish,
Maddie: I think that’s the rudest person
Maddie: I’ve ever met in my entire life.
Maddie: Even if they’re doing it
Maddie: to help me,
Maddie: to help me improve the paper
Maddie: I just wrote,
Maddie: I can see the logic,
Maddie: And to,
Maddie: but my brain is hardwired
Maddie: to perceive that as,
Maddie: oh my gosh,
Maddie: I’m so embarrassed,
Maddie: that was really rude,
Maddie: I don’t know what to do now.
Jeanette: I’m struggling with that
Jeanette: as a German in Britain,
Jeanette: because this very indirect approach.
Maddie: I’ve noticed it sometimes
Maddie: in the way you speak.
Maddie: I’ve noticed it in the way
Maddie: Mina speaks Finnish.
Maddie: She’s got this directness to her.
Maddie: Even in email exchanges.
Maddie: I’m a,
Maddie: hey,
Maddie: hope everything’s well.
Maddie: Just checking in with this, this, this.
Maddie: Mina’s like brilliant,
Maddie: this time,
Maddie: this place,
Maddie: oh my goodness,
Maddie: okay.
Maddie: I have to remind myself that
Maddie: she’s not being rude,
Maddie: she’s not being aggressive,
Maddie: she’s just being direct.
Maddie: And that’s okay.
Jeanette: And it’s a cultural trade.
Maddie: Massively so.
Jeanette: Yeah.
Jeanette: And I think many Chinese students
Jeanette: coming here to study
Jeanette: will probably notice it.
Jeanette: It’s probably a bit more,
Jeanette: a bit closer to the Chinese culture,
Jeanette: the slightly more indirect approach
Jeanette: to things, right?
GiGi: I would consider that
GiGi: the Chinese student,
GiGi: when they’re finishing the degree
GiGi: and try to complete
GiGi: the study in here,
GiGi: I think that actually expecting
GiGi: some very direct suggestion
GiGi: about how to improve their work.
GiGi: Yes.
GiGi: So, yeah.
GiGi: But at the same time,
GiGi: would you consider that,
GiGi: that if you are my student,
GiGi: do you prefer me being more polite
GiGi: or being more suggestive
GiGi: about being very direct
GiGi: about the suggestion?
Maddie: I think it depends,
Maddie: it very much depends on the person.
Maddie: I think some people struggle
Maddie: to see past the blatant,
Maddie: what people perceive as criticism.
Maddie: I think it can be quite disheartening
Maddie: when you’re not used to being,
Maddie: people being direct with you,
Maddie: especially with work,
Maddie: especially with something
Maddie: you’re trying to improve on.
Maddie: But honestly,
Maddie: the route I would take
Maddie: is the overt politeness of,
Maddie: oh, have you maybe tried to do this?
Maddie: I think people respond to it better.
GiGi: Hmm.
Jeanette: Yeah.
Jeanette: So, this is one to learn.
GiGi: Yeah.
Maddie: So, you asked about,
Maddie: if I have any advice.
Maddie: Yeah.
Maddie: My advice would be,
Maddie: be tentative,
Maddie: be tentative with your language,
Maddie: throw in so many unnecessary,
Maddie: or maybe coulds,
Maddie: woulds and shoulds.
Maddie: Is the advice that I could offer.
Maddie: So, when you ask somebody
Maddie: something,
Maddie: just say could,
Maddie: could I have?
Maddie: Excuse me,
Maddie: could you possibly
Maddie: show me the way to the bathroom?
GiGi: Yeah.
Jeanette: Okay, okay, okay.
Maddie: Do you know where the bathroom is?
Maddie: I don’t suppose,
Maddie: I’m really sorry to bother you.
Maddie: Do you know where the bathroom is?
Maddie: As opposed to,
Maddie: it’s asking the exact same question
Maddie: and I recognize that it’s the same thing,
Maddie: but it comes across so differently.
Maddie: Hello, where’s the bathroom?
Jeanette: I remember that,
Jeanette: when I first moved to Britain,
Jeanette: I was a postdoc
Jeanette: at the University of Manchester.
Jeanette: This is a long time ago.
Jeanette: And I went to the canteen
Jeanette: with one of my colleagues
Jeanette: and I said,
Jeanette: Oh, I want that baguette.
Jeanette: And my colleague was falling over.
Jeanette: I was telling me
Jeanette: how utterly rude I was.
Maddie: If I was there,
Maddie: I’d be like,
Maddie: Oh, I’m really sorry about her.
Maddie: Can she please have that baguette?
Maddie: If you have the time to spare.
GiGi: Yeah.
GiGi: Yeah, I guess,
GiGi: yeah, I can see that.
GiGi: Now, because I’m working here
GiGi: for one year now.
GiGi: Sometimes when I received the email
GiGi: from the Chinese student,
GiGi: when they tried to ask me
GiGi: for some reference letter,
GiGi: sometimes I can see
GiGi: that some of the student
GiGi: actually wrote something like that.
GiGi: Oh my God.
GiGi: I started to feel that,
GiGi: yeah, my Chinese student
GiGi: is kind of rude
GiGi: when we’re looking at the email.
Maddie: It’s interesting,
Maddie: because even I remember
Maddie: way back in GCSEs and A-levels,
Maddie: I was speaking to people
Maddie: who were learning other languages.
Maddie: They were trying to substitute
Maddie: this English politeness
Maddie: into set phrases
Maddie: that just weren’t working.
Maddie: So with the “I want that baguette”,
Maddie: I think when we were in French,
Maddie: I think to want is “je voudrais”,
Maddie: say “je voudrais” and “baguette”
Maddie: or whatever it might be.
Maddie: I remember having the conversation
Maddie: with the French teachers being like,
Maddie: Oh, it just seems so impolite.
Maddie: I want that baguette.
Maddie: That’s still more polite
Maddie: than in German.
Maddie: I think it’s the same in Spanish.
Maddie: I think I could be wrong.
Maddie: Is it like “yo quiero”
Maddie: or “I want”?
Jeanette: Yeah, you can use it in a polite form
Jeanette: and not quite so polite form.
Maddie: I remember having conversations
Maddie: with people about trying to
Maddie: insert that English mindset
Maddie: into these other languages.
Maddie: It just doesn’t translate
Maddie: because saying “I want that”
Maddie: isn’t deemed impolite.
Maddie: But in my mind,
Maddie: I want to say,
Maddie: sorry,
Maddie: could I possibly have that?
Maddie: Is it OK if I have that?
Maddie: And it’s just unnecessary.
GiGi: Would you consider
GiGi: this kind of language differences
GiGi: causing this kind of misinterpretation
GiGi: of being rude,
GiGi: of being impolite?
GiGi: Would it become a big factor
GiGi: for causing the difficulty
GiGi: to meeting new friends
GiGi: from an international background?
Maddie: I’m going to say yes.
Maddie: I think less with the politeness,
Maddie: more with what I was saying earlier
Maddie: about the sarcasm and humor.
Maddie: I think I know a lot of people
Maddie: who bond via humor in the UK,
Maddie: especially if it snaps
Maddie: into place with people,
Maddie: then it does.
Maddie: And that’s how people get on,
Maddie: is the kind of people
Maddie: have linked up
Maddie: really similar humours.
Maddie: And I think it’s hard to create.
Maddie: You don’t get me wrong.
Maddie: You can converse
Maddie: and you can be friendly
Maddie: and make friends with
Maddie: whoever you’d like.
Maddie: You don’t need to be
Maddie: from the same international
Maddie: background by any means.
Maddie: But I think it makes it easier
Maddie: to form those instant connections.
Maddie: When those things
Maddie: are mutually understood.
Maddie: Because I don’t think
Maddie: I quite realised how
Maddie: integral those things
Maddie: that are quite inherently
Maddie: British are
Maddie: when I talk about the humor
Maddie: until I was speaking
Maddie: to international students.
Maddie: And I was like,
Maddie: Oh, I’m going to reevaluate
Maddie: the way I’m saying things,
Maddie: because I will just come across
Maddie: as blatantly rude and mean.
GiGi: So if one of the students
GiGi: are coming here
GiGi: for one year study
GiGi: of their master program,
GiGi: and then they want to
GiGi: meet some UK friends,
GiGi: what would be
GiGi: the best approach?
GiGi: Do you have any suggestion
GiGi: for them if they would like
GiGi: to meet some new friends
GiGi: when they’re studying here?
GiGi: Any suggestion to like…
Maddie: I had a flatmate
Maddie: in first year
Maddie: who was doing her master’s.
Maddie: And she was from China.
Maddie: I’m not sure where about.
Maddie: And she was so lovely.
Maddie: She sat me down.
Maddie: She said,
Maddie: I’m trying to make new friends.
Maddie: I’m trying to improve my English.
Maddie: And I’d love if we could
Maddie: have more conversations.
Maddie: And I’d love if we could
Maddie: hang out a little bit more.
Maddie: Her name was YC.
Maddie: I couldn’t tell you
Maddie: what her Chinese name was.
Maddie: But just really lovely.
Maddie: And she was just
Maddie: quite open with it.
Maddie: And I think people
Maddie: respect openness.
Maddie: And I think it makes sense
Maddie: to people if you were to say…
Maddie: If you just explained,
Maddie: like,Hey, I’m trying to
Maddie: make new friends.
Maddie: Or hey, I’m trying to
Maddie: improve my English.
Maddie: But beyond that, I think…
Maddie: I don’t think it’s that
Maddie: different making friends.
Maddie: I think speak to the people
Maddie: on your course.
Maddie: Join the societies
Maddie: that you’re interested in.
Maddie: Because mutual interest
Maddie: brings people together.
Maddie: You’re interested in the same topic.
Maddie: That’s why you’re both
Maddie: studying it.
Maddie: You’re living in the same place.
Maddie: Conversation.
Maddie: You have the same hobbies.
Maddie: You’re in the same societies.
Maddie: It makes sense.
Jeanette: I think hobbies
Jeanette: are really important, right?
Jeanette: Do what you enjoy.
Jeanette: And find people that way.
Jeanette: And I know, like,
Jeanette: you’re playing badminton, right?
Maddie: Yes.
Jeanette: You’ve got quite a few…
Jeanette: quite an international team.
Maddie: Yes, quite an international team, yeah.
Maddie: And I think…
Maddie: it’s…
Maddie: they all speak
Maddie: in, like, fluent English.
Maddie: And but there are a couple
Maddie: that are a little bit
Maddie: more broken English.
Maddie: And when it comes to us talking,
Maddie: us conversing,
Maddie: us having a game together,
Maddie: a lot of it,
Maddie: because it’s a hobby,
Maddie: we don’t have to speak.
Maddie: There’s other movements we can do.
Maddie: There’s other ways we can connect
Maddie: beyond language.
Maddie: So if you don’t…
Maddie: if it’s…
Maddie: if the idea of having to speak English
Maddie: can become quite tedious
Maddie: and exhausting
Maddie: when you’ve done it all day,
Maddie: every day,
Maddie: and it’s your second language
Maddie: and you keep slipping up,
Maddie: it gets quite demoralising,
Maddie: and it gets quite exhausting
Maddie: after a certain amount of time
Maddie: to have your brain
Maddie: constantly switched on,
Maddie: then I know people who are
Maddie: joined, like, dance societies
Maddie: and who have made friends
Maddie: because they’re in
Maddie: societies together,
Maddie: but they don’t…
Maddie: doesn’t necessarily always
Maddie: revolve around speaking
Maddie: and chatting,
Maddie: and that’s okay,
Maddie: it’s still a friendship nonetheless.
Maddie: It’s still bonding with people.
Jeanette: Fantastic.
Jeanette: That sounds like really good advice.
Jeanette: Yeah.
Jeanette: Well, we’ve talked about
Jeanette: loads of different things
Jeanette: today, haven’t we?
Jeanette: Yeah, we have.
GiGi: Yeah, it’s nice.
Jeanette: Yeah, it’s been really,
Jeanette: really lovely
Jeanette: to have you here, Maddie.
Maddie: Thank you very much
Maddie: for having me.
Jeanette: Yeah, thanks so much
Jeanette: for coming and joining
Jeanette: our podcast.
Maddie: It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Jeanette: Okay, bye.
GiGi: Bye-bye.