欢迎收听鸡同鸭讲播客,我是郑行之 Gigi。
And I'm Jeanette Sakel, 柯珍.
As regular listeners will have realised, we switched languages today.
Just to try it out.
So Gigi is going to speak Chinese and I'm going to speak English.
Let's see how that works.
Cool.
Is it weird?
有一点点怪怪的吧,但是其实还好。
就首先是我不用再想着要换语言了,因为其实我在说话的时候基本上都是要想半天然后才说英语。
所以我之前就会老是会卡，卡壳,这一次我应该不会太卡壳了。
Yeah, the same, the same. For me it's so much easier to speak English, even though English is obviously not my native language.
对,但是你教语言已经教很久了呀,而且你在英国待了很久。
Yeah.
其实我来英国工作那么一年,我感觉我英语的口语的确是比前一年进步了很多,因为要用很长时间的去用。
的确就是无论是画画也好,做写程序也好,都是不用的话基本上都会生锈的,英语也是,对。
Yeah, and I mean, I've done what second language learners have recommended.
The best thing to do to learn another language, which is to have a partner who speaks that language.
So to find a boyfriend or girlfriend, or in my case, even an ex-husband who speaks that language.
I'm just worried. Don't make me laugh because I...
不要让我笑了,因为我很担心我把我的口水弄到你的麦克风上面。
No, it's okay. No problem. The microphones can be cleaned. It's okay.
Okay, cool. Yeah.
对,你看我现在都已经有点养成习惯,有时候就会转眼就会说一点点英语,这其实还挺奇怪的,对。
Well, this type of code switching is really natural, isn't it?
对,是的。
Especially when you're in that situation.
When somebody speaks another language, actually linguistically, because I'm a linguist, and linguistically it's sort of weird when one person speaks one language, the other person speaks another language.
not to want to switch when you can.
So having this division that we're having at the moment is actually quite strange.
对,是的,是的,是的。
So today we want to talk about something that you've read the other day, didn't you, Gigi?
What was that?
我已经忘了。我们到底要想讨论什么呢?
Oh, apologies, apologies for asking you about this particular topic.
Oh, apologies.
哦,对,我们想讨论的就是,我们来了英国之后,我们会经常说sorry嘛。
我刚刚就看了一篇文章就说,英国人每天要道歉八百次。
我觉得应该是我看错标题了吧。
实际上我一天下来也应该也道歉不了一百百次,这太多了吧。
八百次,eight hundred times, it's possible, depends on the person.
那经常我们会在什么时候会说sorry呢?
每一个文化的确会有一点不太一样。
就让我想起了我小时候在看日本动画的时候,
那些动画实际上他们根据那个他道歉的程度实际上是有分的。
比如说,ごめん、ごめんなさい。
Something like that.
还会有一种更加深入的一种,实际上这些都是非常浅的。
所以我在想有时候当一个英国人跟你说sorry的时候,
我在想他可能实际上心里面根本就没有跟你要道歉的意思。
就稍微有一点点,但是实际上就可能就真是好吧,就这样就发生了,然后就过吧,就这样子有种感觉。
It's sort of a cultural expectation to say sorry excessively even when you don't mean it.
And if you don't do it, then you're seen as strange.
对,你会觉得,那么如果一个英国人在道歉的时候,如果他是真诚地觉得他是犯错了,他应该肯定不会用sorry这个方式来去说,他可能会说sincere apology.
It really depends on the situation, I mean, and on the formality, I've got a colleague who would always say sincere apologies in all cases.
It depends how posh you are.
It depends how old you are.
It depends on a lot of different things.
And obviously, quite often, the apologies are genuine.
有时候也感觉这个语言这个多样化还挺心累的,每一次听到人家说sorry的时候,我心里面还要老想半天,他到底是真诚的道歉呢,还是假假的道歉呢,其实说实话有点累。
So what I have noticed, which is really quite strange because obviously in Germany you don't say sorry quite so much.
But because I've been in Britain for over 20 years and I've sort of internalized some of the British culture.
I speak English much more than I speak German, for example.
And I've become more British by being here.
So when I go back to Germany and I walk around my old hometown and somebody bumps into me, I automatically say sorry in German.
I would go, Entschuldigen Sie.
That would be really natural to me.
And German people think I'm crazy.
They look at me, what's wrong with her?
对,这让我想起来我以前高中的时候特别喜欢看一个,我有一个特别喜欢的作家呢,叫米兰昆德拉,然后呢,他曾经,他是捷克人,但是呢,他因为他写的一些东西就涉及到一些比较政治敏感的内容,所以呢,他后来呢,就作为难民,就搬到法国去了。
然后呢，他就... 我就记忆特别深刻的就说：他觉得他自己现在定居在法国，他既不是捷克人，也不是法国人，他就变成是一个哪里都不属于的一个人。我觉得好像现在像我们这样子用着Chinglish 用着 English 来去聊那些内容，实际上我们既不是特别英国，也不是特别像我们原来的那个地方我们就变成是
从某种程度上就变成一种世界人了。
就接受了不同方面的文化教育,
就从哪方面都有一点点hybridising。
Yeah, absolutely.
I feel very much like that,
because when I'm learning so much Chinese at the moment,
and I'm really immersed, you know,
前进。
对,是的。
Very, very immersed in Chinese,
so I watch a lot of Chinese television,
and speak a lot of Chinese,
and I feel sometimes I'm sitting in between
in the different cultures.
Sometimes I feel I'm not,
well, I'm, what am I?
What is my identity?
其实现在想来想去,其实我们这样子去逼着自己,我现在到底是哪里的人呢?
然后当我们接受了这些文化的之后,我觉得从某种定义上,我觉得我自己现在挺好的。
对,我不需要说我必须要将自己归类到哪一种,我就是我自己。
我觉得这样子是一个很积极的一个这样的事情。
我们不需要规定规划,就是说这个就是属于中国的文化,这个就属于英国的文化。
其实在我们无论是语言学,还有我们包括我们整个人之中,这种文化交融,cultural hybridisation这种现象也是会经常发生的。
因为中国本身就是56个民族,然后就是各种各样的文化融杂在一起。
所以其实没有说是这些必须就是中国的文化,这些是满族的,或者是...我们就是一个家庭而已。
Yeah, and in a way, so within a country, you have that sort of hybridisation, but also across.
And in today's world where people travel and people go to other places, and we've got students coming to the UK and we're going elsewhere, it's automatic, it's natural that things mix a little bit and we're learning from each other.
And in a way, I feel personally by learning another language, by learning Chinese, for example, I learn so much more about the culture that was really strange to me at first.
And then you realise, actually, we're all people, right?
We have the same desires.
We have the same ideas.
We all have families or our lives.
We have our personal interests.
And that is also really interesting, how that then influences your thought.
对,就是说尤其是当我在2019年到2021年在英国留学期间的话,其实我第一篇写的那个所谓的论文吧,就是是关于这个cultural hybridisation的。
对,其实有很多中国留学生来到英国留学之后,我觉得有一个很难的地方,就是说感觉好像有一层隐藏,就是说invisible wall,就是说有一个隐形的一个墙。
我们好像是有种边缘感,
就是说跟这个英国的主流文化之间实际上是有差别,
有一定差别,
我们并不知道,
除了这些The Big Ben,
The London Eye之外,
其实我们对这个英国的文化本身就没有这么多认识。
I heard a podcast of someone talking about England,
and they said that they wanted to come to the UK,
They were Chinese.
They wanted to come to the UK and study here.
And they already had quite a good impression of the UK
because they had watched Downtown Abbey,
which is a historical drama.
So it's like me watching a historical drama,
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon,
and then go, I know China.
Yes, in some degree, yes.
从某一种程度上的确是,但是当真的我们生活在这个环境里面的话,实际上那种边缘感还是很强的。
对,有时候就是会感觉吧,反而在我们在网络中,我们在电影中去了解这个英国社会,我们反而会觉得很亲近。
但是真正当我们到了这个环境之后,我们反而还觉得,哦,这天哪,我怎么样。
所以我觉得会有很多的中国留学生来到这里之后,这种感觉突然间就加强了。
然后就觉得,哦,天哪,我把我自己放在一个这么陌生的一个环境里面,
我觉得怎么去适应这个环境实际上是一个非常难的过程。
But isn't it, it goes both ways because if you've watched things, if you've watched series and sort of engaged with the culture, in a way, much of it is also familiar.
So you might recognise the buildings because you've watched a series from that town.
Like Bristol, for example, is in a lot of television series.
Yes.
So our students.
What's so best about Skins?
Yeah, and so many others.
They're currently filming Young Sherlock, I think.
Young Sherlock?
Yes, in town.
Oh, in here?
Yeah, in town.
Where, where, where? That's cool.
Just in town, in the town centre.
So my students were there last week and they said, oh, they came across it.
Yes.
And it's very sort of very famous, very famous series and so on are being filmed here in films.
And so, yeah, students coming here, they might know, oh, I've seen this building.
I'm quite familiar with this.
But then on the other hand, there's this sort of, yeah, well, the invisible wall you mentioned.
There's this sort of this cultural knowledge that you can't really get through reading a book, through watching a movie, etc.
but rather when you're in the country, you sort of develop, don't you?
对,是的。
但是我觉得我们在留学的过程之中吧,
其实最核心的我们花这么多精力,
花这么多金钱来到这里,
其实这个才是我们真正要学习的最核心的部分。
怎么在一个陌生的环境里面去快速地去适应这些改变。
Yeah, and it's so important.
Yeah.
工作还有生活当中其实都是一个很有效的。
怎么跟外国人打交道。
其实真的当你打破了这个隐形的墙之后,
其实你会发现其实大家想的都是一样。
Indeed, yeah.
对,都是一大堆思想龌龊。
都是一大堆思想龌龊,
就是想着自己怎么过好自己生活的一些人。
Yeah, exactly.
其实这个大家都差不多的,对。
也有思想很纯洁的人了。
但是大家都其实都是在追求着共同的幸福。
Yeah, and I think it's this wanting to interact with others as well
and being open to other ideas or speaking with other people
that really helps you in your thinking
and really helps you in developing your own ideas
and an idea of your own identity as well.
I've never reflected that much on what it means to be German.
Or well, I didn't used to.
And then I moved abroad and I realised that,
oh, this is actually quite a cultural, a German thing.
Yeah, cultural, cultural trade I wasn't even aware of.
And that in itself is also quite interesting, isn't it?
But then talking to people who want to talk to you.
有很多很有意思的文章就是說,
中国留学生来到英国之后反而变得更爱国了。
对,所以就是一个很有意思的这样的一些情况吧。
Indeed, indeed.
And then also realize what you like about your home country,
what you like about other countries,
and bring it together and also have that connection.
对,是的。
Because it's, yeah, you love China and you go back to China,
but you still have that connection and that understanding
of how things work elsewhere.
And I think the more we can do that, the better.
就像我现在在跟你聊天一样嘛。
Absolutely.
And isn't it nice to speak the other way around?
Like, I'm still confused, not speaking Chinese,
but I want to speak Chinese, but I think this is, yeah.
对,这种保持好奇心的还是很有必要的,
对这个世界保持好奇心。
如果没有好奇心的话,
其实感觉有点我们活着的意义都有点没有了,对吧?
Yeah, exactly.
Cool.
每次我打开手机在那里翻阅那些最新的新闻的时候,每一次看那些新闻我都是会觉得好糟心哦,就会觉得怎么会有这么多这么不幸的事情在这个世界上发生。
这不能够继续这样下去。
其实有很多时候,他们之所以会产生这样的争执,
就是因为有很多交流上没有做好充分的交流,
所以才会导致这些争执。
所以我觉得讨论那些比较很麻烦的议题,
很麻烦的主题其实也是一个很重要的事情。
我们应该以更开放的态度来去讨论那些事情。
But how do you speak with friends or with strangers in such a way that you don't offend?
How can you choose those subjects, those topics?
我相信在跟无论德国人还是英国人还是中国人在交流的时候,
其实每一个人心里面的话都是会有那么一点点关键词,
是希望我们在交流的过程之中是不希望被他人所提及的。
但是有时候那个界限又很难去界定。
如果我之前从来没接触过德国人,从来没接触过英国人,不了解他们的历史,
实际上我们是很难就是说去真的就是说怎么才算是那个界定。
然后在了解这个事情的时候,我突然间就想到一些很有趣的一个概念。
有些人就是说无知者无罪,如果我不知道这个事情的话,我就是无罪的。
But is it? Is it really?
对,但是从某一种角度来说的话,又很有意思的就是说在佛教里面,
因为我之前交的那个男朋友,他就说,实际上他如果在佛教里面的话,他有三种罪嘛,三种毒,three poison,然后呢就说贪,嗔,痴,在吃里面的话呢就说傻,就说如果你无知的话实际上也是一种罪来的。
所以就是说,这其实这两种之间的话,我觉得还挺有意思的。
到底我不知道别人的这个困难的话,到底是有罪还是无罪?
其实这个还说实话也挺难界定的。
Yeah, and I think it really depends if you're seeking that knowledge,
or if you're deliberately not seeking the knowledge.
So if you know there are other cultures out there,
and other ways of interacting, and other ways of doing things,
and you ignore that and then just step in it,
then I guess it's your fault, isn't it?
But if you try to seek that knowledge and you get it wrong,
like we discussed in the previous episode
where we discussed he, she, and they,
and if you get they wrong, you know,
but you're trying, you're trying your best,
but you're getting it wrong,
then that's not the end of it.
And we also, I guess we discussed this
with respect to language learning, didn't we?
Because when we speak,
when I speak Chinese, you speak English,
We do get things wrong.
是的。
And that is obviously very embarrassing, or can be very embarrassing.
But then, you know, you just have to get over that.
But again, we're trying, right?
对。
And we get things wrong.
对,所以其实如果总结起来的话,我们可不可以这样说,就是说,如果我们在跟外国人在交流的时候,其实最核心是要保留,保持两种态度,一个就是说要对他人保持一种好奇心,第二个就是说我们这边需要去更加接受吧,
More inclusive... right?
inclusive yes yeah and have that curiosity towards the other person yeah
实际上,对,其实有很多那些互相的不理解都是差不多的吧。
就像我们刚才说的一样,其实大家都差不多。
都是追求着自己的快乐。
And it's quite interesting because if you have people who say,
oh, I don't like foreigners or, you know, I don't like Germans or something like that.
And then they have a friend who is German.
对,对,对。
Yeah, but not him.
对,对。
She's okay, but all the others that I don't know.
对,所以就是说实际上不应该以这个,其实就是说到最后其实一种米养百种人,其实并不是说每一个中国人都是长得同一个性格,中国人里面也有好人,也有坏人。
但英国也一样。
对,是的,是的。
各种各样。
对,所以就是说实际上我们不应该就是说将某一个国籍,
就将那个性格的那些东西全部就归向到那些,
只要是中国人就肯定会做这个事情,
这个的话我觉得其实是不利于大家来进行这个更有利的交流的。
我所采取的态度呢就是说开玩笑。
Ah, that's a good one, yeah.
对。
How would you do that then?
对,在跟我跟,又在说我的,我在跟前男友在相处的时候呢,他就说了一个非常深刻的话,joke are half-meant,反正是开玩笑的话,都是,一般的,不是一般的,对,都是会有,他实际上就是意味着,他实际上是认真在说这个事情的。
突然间有一个想法,就是说,实际上就是说,如果你的实话,你觉得你的实话,你的truth,what you are telling is truth, is going to cure the disease.
那个苦的东西也吞下去了。
我觉得这就是很多那些喜剧人,
Comedian在做的事情。
There's an expression in English as well,
which is not quite as polite.
Do you know that one?
What is that?
The shit sandwich.
You have a piece of bread,
and you have the rubbish in the middle,
and then you have another piece of bread.
但是如果我可以,
如果屎屎可以治疗我的病的话,
那我还是会选择吃下去的。
但是,对,shit的话,反正我现在也full of shit,所以就直接把我在sandwich里面吧,然后你是不是是你的选择吗?
开玩笑,不要将自己当作一回事,就经常拿自己开玩笑。
And that makes life a bit more relaxing as well, right?
Be relaxed about things, joke about things, be obviously, you know, quite formal or earnest when you need to,
but then on the other hand, just be yourself and not worry too much.
And if you do offend people, you can always do it the English way and say sorry.
对,但是还是要不能够说sorry,要用更加真诚的方式说sorry,对吧?
Terribly sorry!
So those were some interesting topics.
I think this whole idea of cultural hybridization and what happens between different cultures, different languages and so on, we can explore much further, right?
I think that is really lovely.
It's such a lovely topic.
对,我觉得真的,我觉得我们播客要做这个就是说要去不断的去增强这种交流吧。
外国做了什么坏事,老是会这样子,
我觉得应该要用一些更加积极的态度,
更加积极的方式来去加强这种交流吧,
并不是,大家都挺好的,
对,并不是说他就是坏的,
他就没有这样,
没有这样说一个人好就好到底,
没有一个人坏就坏到底,
By adventure, by,
对,是的,
对,我们并不是活在一个白雪公主的一个格林童话里面,
每一个人都是只是为了争取自己的幸福而已。
无论你是中国人,德国人还是英国人,实际上我们都是一样的。
Exactly.
Right.
And on that note, we shall finish the podcast.
But before we go, dear listeners, if you have any interesting things to share,
and if you would like us to discuss specific topics, you are very welcome to leave us a message.
对。
我们这边也会经常会看我们的chickentoducktalk.com的那个网站,
会看一下你们这边有没有给我们留言,
如果你有一些感兴趣的内容的话,
也可以加入到我们,
我们也可以邀请你来做嘉宾,
一起来去讨论一下你的这个留学生活,
也可以说英语,
也可以说中文,
你也可以说猫语也没问题,
你可以邀请冬天过来做播客,
好,那下次见,